Debate Classics : Religion

[arcthemonkey]

The top row is Haeckel's drawings (which he admittedly "drew from memory") which he used to teach embryonic recapitulation, and the second row are actual embryos at the same stage of development.
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/2236 ... kelsx0.jpg[/IMG]

Notice that while they bear passive similarities (head, torso, etc) they are, in fact, dramatically dissimilar - and were more so a few weeks before these pictures would have been taken.

 

[Minkoff]

Now, lots of people say "Fine, it's entirely possible that God exists. But the logical default is negative, not neutral. If I came up to you and said 'I am immortal, worship me', you wouldn't believe me. You'd be mad to! So you can't make a positive assertion without evidence; it's automatically false,"
The people who say this are stupid! They would be being very clever, except for the fact that whether or not you are immortal is demonstrable. That is, it can be shown to be true or false. Therefore it is a matter of science, and I would be mad to believe it. However, whether or not God exists is not demonstrable.

You're too good for a straw man argument like that. There are other examples of claims that can be made that are not demonstrably false, and the default answer is still no. You seem to be missing the word "default." The real answer is still "I don't know."

 

[Roman Candle]

Oh Minkoff, you're such a a flatterer. Where no evidence can possibly be offered, it is impossible to make any assertion through logic/reason.

Give me an example of one of these claims, please, I don't see how one could exist.

 

[Minkoff]

I have a pet alien. You can't see, hear, taste, smell, feel, or detect him in any physical way because of his advanced alien technology and track-covering, but he's right here next to me and I'm pretty sure he's contacting me telepathically. How can you prove that he doesn't really exist? Technically, he might exist, but casually I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't say he doesn't

 

[Roman Candle]

If he's telepathically contacting you, then I could test for it. If it is actually undetectable, then I wouldn't believe in it only because I don't 'feel' it's presence. If you do, then you would, even should, believe in it.

 

[Jonathan]

I have yet to be presented with a good reason for a Christian to reject evolution on grounds of their religion.

Like i said before (a long time before!) The creation pattern doesn't fit. in evolution, Birds come after land animals, in the Bible, before. In evolution ~(big bang theory this time) Sun comes first, in the bible, earth. The biggest one, i reckon is this verse, repeated a few times in genesis.

21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.â€Â

 

[Roman Candle]

That's not a good enough reason :p

13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

There was evening, and morning, and then the sun was created. I'm sure someone's already contrived some kind of explanation of how this makes perfect sense, but you must admit that taken at face value, as it was meant to be understood, this is a contradiction if you take it litterally. The question is, just because the Bible says that the x was made on this day, and the y on this day, does that mean that in the actual history of the world, there was no y before there was x? Perhaps, and I'm just throwing this in the air here, don't think I'm mad or anything, that's not the point. I mean, if that's all there is to it ... What significance does it carry? Why bother telling me that? Maybe, bear with me, the point is one about the order of the world, the underlying structures and arragements. Personally, I think that's a lot more significant. Let's not forget, it is a story. Don't take that as an attack, by the way. I mean, what kind of person devotes themselves to a history book?

 

[arcthemonkey]

The easiest explaination for what you are pointing out is that there was day and night before the sun was created. Genesis 1:3-8 clearly account for day and night. The sun and moon were, in the time of creation, completely seperate items. In other words - there were mornings and evenings before the sun was created, and this is very clearly accounted for in a contextual reading of the text.

 

[Grandor]

But, how could their be a morning and night if their was no light source from the sun to separate the dark from the light? Or did God, do that automatically then create the Sun? Just saying God did it, is I don't know. Far to simple for the creation of everything. Their has to be a more intricate explanation.

 

[Roman Candle]

That's the question, not the solution :p
Anyway, this wasn't the bulk of my earlier point; if you didn't already dispute evolution, would you be convinced by this?

 

[arcthemonkey]

Convinced by the passage in question, or by the literary work as a whole?

I found the bible very convincing long before I was ever a christian, so yes, I am convinced by the book.

The book is a hell of a lot more reliable than the books your learned about Alexander the Great or Cleopatra from - yet you're convinced of them.

Is the only hang up for you guys the supernatural aspects? That's like a pure personification of close mindedness.

 

[Minkoff]

If he's telepathically contacting you, then I could test for it. If it is actually undetectable, then I wouldn't believe in it only because I don't 'feel' it's presence. If you do, then you would, even should, believe in it.

I don't know, it sounds pretty damn crazy to trust intuition over physical evidence and likelihood. There hasn't been much evidence of the existence of aliens on this planet, but there have been lots and lots of crazy people who thought they saw aliens anyway. Believing your feelings over logic and evidence is pretty irresponsible, actually.

The book is a hell of a lot more reliable than the books your learned about Alexander the Great or Cleopatra from - yet you're convinced of them.

Convinced that they probably existed, not that every single recorded thing about them was true. There's a pretty huge difference there. You don't have to believe in every little tiny bit of the Bible to think it holds some truth. It isn't that black and white.

Is the only hang up for you guys the supernatural aspects? That's like a pure personification of close mindedness.

Has anyone said that is was?

 

[Roman Candle]

That's exactly the opposite of what I mean. You're still looking at this from the point of view where to believe in the Bible, you must believe that it is a bland statement of fact. In some places it is - but why here? Look at the imagary; look at the language. Give the people who wrote the thing a little credit. It's a powerful, moving piece of text. Acknowledging what is written in a book is not the same as being inspired by it. You don't need a religion to tell you what day the turtle was made on relative to the emu. It's not relevent outside of the academia-obsessed society of today. When you get down to it, it makes no difference.

EDIT - Somehow I didn't see minkoff's post, so reply to it:
You're still missing the point :p This isn't taking intuition over logic, because logic has nothing to say the on the matter. It is stupid to believe that people have been abducted by aliens, because if they had, then there would be evidence. The existence of God does not imply evidence of God, therefore a lack of evidence does not imply that God does not exist; not even slightly.

 

[g_man_450]

That's exactly the opposite of what I mean. You're still looking at this from the point of view where to believe in the Bible, you must believe that it is a bland statement of fact. In some places it is - but why here? Look at the imagary; look at the language. Give the people who wrote the thing a little credit. It's a powerful, moving piece of text. Acknowledging what is written in a book is not the same as being inspired by it. You don't need a religion to tell you what day the turtle was made on relative to the emu. It's not relevent outside of the academia-obsessed society of today. When you get down to it, it makes no difference.

Well said RC. I appreciate your balanced approached in a world full of blatant extremes. As a Christian (and a student of religion-working toward a PhD), your candor is refreshing. Regardless of whether you believe the Bible is inspired or true or infallible, or anything, it is still worthy of reading as a great piece of literature and a "moral compass" for life. I, however, hold the belief that the Bible speaks so accurately regarding human affairs and the inner workings of man, that such a dynamic and inwardly moving text that speaks directly to my heart (subjective argument, but convincing for me) was not written by skilled orators (for most of the Bible's authors were fairly uneducated), but rather by the one true God speaking through countless generations of people from all walks of life and even cultural/racial backgrounds, to restore a tainted and corrupted relationship with his beloved creation from whom he is separated, and longs to be reunited with. This is not in a longing born from any dependency or weakness from God's perspective, but moved sheerly from the compassion and goodness of his character and the expression of his infinite love.

Allowing nuances of text, bigots, hypocrites, false assumptions etc. to blind you from the "big picture" of what the Bible claims is unfortunate at best, and eternally detrimental at worst.

 

[Grandor]

I found the bible very convincing long before I was ever a christian, so yes, I am convinced by the book.

The book is a hell of a lot more reliable than the books your learned about Alexander the Great or Cleopatra from - yet you're convinced of them.

Is the only hang up for you guys the supernatural aspects? That's like a pure personification of close mindedness.

No matter how convincing it may be I will not change my point of perspective, knowing that it (the Bible) was written by man. I don't think God inspired anyone to write it. Some of the so called miracles in there are nothing more then things that people couldn't explain at the time. A simple example, is fire and brimstone spewed from the sky. People back then would have thought it was God punishing them. Now a days we can attribute that stuff to something natural-a volcano. I'm just saying, if you use the Bible to support your claims that you make about God, then be sure to have other evidence as well. I am in no means Atheist, but now that I look at some of the bold claims that the Bible has made, I won't use faith as a way to explain them. But rather science. And maybe the supernatural aspects are harder to grasp. We know that Alexander the Great existed. We don't know if God existed. This uncertainty leaves us to disbelief. Because if you get down to it, and you find out their is no God. Guess what you just wasted your whole life praying to thin air, giving up all your hopes. And no one wants to feel the agony that would accompany something like that. Knowing all their beliefs have gone down the drain.

 

[Jonathan]

Whoever said God doesn't use natural occurences to acheive something? I don't think that is implied anywhere in the Bible or in this forum. However, one could say the timing of the natural occurence was divinely organised.

Also, what you said about feeling you've wasted your life is illogical, to me anyway.
Give me all the money in the world and i would not stop believing in God. this is the most awesome existence i could hope for, and the knowledge that there is someone greater than me, "working all things out for the good of those who love him" is unbelievably amazing.

If i'm right about God, which i am 100% sure of, no doubt at all that he exists, then ROCK ON! I can't wait till heaven!

If i'm wrong about God, then I have really lived. I have enjoyed my life thoroughly and wouldn't change a thing about my beliefs if i could live life again.

God gives us real life, God allows us to actually live, not just get by. Not just exist, but live for the purpose you were created! I mean, wow! would you give that up for anything?

But, how could their be a morning and night if their was no light source from the sun to separate the dark from the light? Or did God, do that automatically then create the Sun? Just saying God did it, is I don't know. Far to simple for the creation of everything. Their has to be a more intricate explanation.

Oh yeah, and to this quote, the first thing God did (after creating an empty universe and earth to fill) was create light. "and God said let there be light." (Pretty darn sensible thing to do since energy can be converted to matter and light has energy...) Anyway, all you need for day and night cycles is a light source and a rotating earth. God simply started the rotation of earth to make the day and night cycle. notice that God said he used the sun to govern the day and the moon to govern the night, not actually bring about day and night.

 

[FoxDemonSoavi]

the bible is a very very poor moral compas. I believe that every religion has a peice of the truth deep down underneath all the social laws of the time it was written.

Just about every religion has some version of "don't be a dick". I think that is what really matters. don't treat people in a way that would hurt them.

There are so many bad decress in the bible, and just about every other religion, that I can't possibly believe they are 100% correct.

Honestly, if you can answer these questoins to my satisfaction I'll believe the bible and its assorted texts to be 100% correct and know that the comonality in religions isn't important (ie be kind to others)

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

Keep in mind that god's word is eternal and unchanging.

 

[Roman Candle]

I'm sure someone's already contrived some kind of explanation of how this makes perfect sense

the first thing God did (after creating an empty universe and earth to fill) was create light. "and God said let there be light." (Pretty darn sensible thing to do since energy can be converted to matter and light has energy...) Anyway, all you need for day and night cycles is a light source and a rotating earth. God simply started the rotation of earth to make the day and night cycle. notice that God said he used the sun to govern the day and the moon to govern the night, not actually bring about day and night.

I stand corrected.

Whoever said God doesn't use natural occurences to acheive something? I don't think that is implied anywhere in the Bible or in this forum. However, one could say the timing of the natural occurence was divinely organised.

Except evolution, apparently.

 

[g_man_450]

the bible is a very very poor moral compas. I believe that every religion has a peice of the truth deep down underneath all the social laws of the time it was written.

Just about every religion has some version of "don't be a dick". I think that is what really matters. don't treat people in a way that would hurt them.

There are so many bad decress in the bible, and just about every other religion, that I can't possibly believe they are 100% correct.

Honestly, if you can answer these questoins to my satisfaction I'll believe the bible and its assorted texts to be 100% correct and know that the comonality in religions isn't important (ie be kind to others)

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

Keep in mind that god's word is eternal and unchanging.

Well, that certainly would be a matter of interpretation. I am under the belief that Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic law, and thus believers are not bound to it. We are bound to his teachings, which can be summarized as love God and love others. The law was a pedagogue (teacher) to show us our inability to be 'good' on our own. Because man could never attain to those standards, sacrifices were required. The crucifixion of Jesus, however, was the final sacrifice covering the sins of all men so that restoration to God could be accomplished.

 

[Grandor]

If i'm right about God, which i am 100% sure of

The problem is the only thing that holds this certainty is your faith. What happens when you die, and you find out that God wasn't real? Then what? I believe in God myself, and I do believe in the Bible's teachings, however some of the stuff in their is just bullshit. And some of the stuff I think about praying to God, may in some cases work. But I believe taking action towards the problem is what solves them. Not praying to God. (Sometimes, anyway.) If we took the Bibles meanings literally and carried them over on today, if you did work yesterday, you would be killed. Or if I know you committed adultery and I had 2 witnesses, you would be killed. Sometimes it didn't even require witnesses if somebody was accused of doing something like that.

Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic law, and thus believers are not bound to it.

I thought everything in the Bible was law, and straight from God. Wouldn't you be disobeying God, if you didn't do what it said? Come on now.