Atheism IS a Religion.

[Venetia]

I wish this could just be a statement instead of a debate, but here's the skinny on this mini-rant.

THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ON WHAT YOUR RELIGION IS. This is a debate on whether or not Atheism IS a religion.

This is not directed at anyone who believes something and keeps it private. This is directed at people who flame others or try to convert others or who think they're better because they think they have the right idea.

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ATHEISM IS A RELIGION.

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What is religion?

Religion [rəˈlidʒən] noun
A particular system of belief or worship.
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What is Atheism?

Atheism [ˈeɪθiˌɪzəm] noun
The doctrine or belief that there is no God.
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You see that, there?

BELIEF.

Now, I'm going to compare it to Christianity, because that always seems to be the target of angry atheists.

~ Christians believe that there is an almighty force to the creation of the universe.

~ Atheists believe that some scientific happening created the universe.

~ Christians believe that there will be an afterlife.

~ Atheists believe that there will simply be nothing after death.

~ Christians shun atheists for disbelieving their way of life.

~ Atheists shun Christians for disbelieving "scientific fact".


NOW, HERE'S A NEWSFLASH:

SCIENTIFIC THEORIES ABOUT THE CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE AND THE AFTERLIFE ARE NOT FACTS.
THEY ARE THEORIES.


NO ONE knows what happens after the body dies. No one! Not even people who've died--because it only happened for a minute or two!

NO ONE knows what happened at the beginning of time! We can only speculate!


Now, I'm not religious. That means I believe in nothing.

"Oh, that makes you an Atheist!"

NO

It means I am religion-less! I don't believe in anything, because I choose to hold my opinions until my time comes!

Atheists: Guess what? Your opinions are NOT SCIENTIFIC FACTS. You can't bash Christians because they believe in something because you're believing in something, too!

You believe that the universe was borne of a non-extraordinary force, and that it's nothing after death.

But since you don't KNOW it and can't PROVE it, it's a belief, NOT a fact.

So, to all you Atheists out there who think that you're hot shit for being more "intellectual", I have news for you: It could very well be that the Christians were right all along.

Because you can't prove your theories, so that makes them BELIEFS, which means you're part of a religion, just like them!

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If you're Atheist and you think you're better than people who are religious, tell me why you think so.

Tell me why you think your GENERALLY-ACCEPTED, STRUCTURED BELIEF SYSTEM is not a religion.

Tell me. Please.


Because dipshits of any religion who think they're better than anyone else are just that: Dipshits.

People are allowed to believe whatever they want. Just quit flaunting around, thinking that you're smarter for it. Beliefs aren't about being smart. They're about private thoughts and opinions.

 

[Despain]

THANK YOU

I am annoyed by the "cool-kid" atheists out there (especially online) that go around flaunting it and generally attacking Christians at every chance they get. It gives the real athiests like myself a bad name. I don't belive what I believe to try and be cool or cutting edge or any of that bullshit, it's just the way I think about things and I can't really change that.

In lots of ways, it's almost embarassing to admit that I am an atheist because these little dickwads give it a totally bad name.

I never insult or make fun of a Christian or anybody for believing in God, in lots of ways I really respect that, whether or not I disagree with it, I only rip them apart if they use it as an excuse for ignorance or bigotry (ie homophobia).

 

[e]

@Venetia : You're wrong. You're targeting a particular type of so-called atheist. Literally, atheist means without religion. There's no debate to it.

Science has sometimes been used as a substitute to religion, but that's that. Being an atheist has nothing to do with science. You're referring to staunch materialism.

And anyone who doesn't understand the fact that scientific theories (i.e. : the big bang, evolution) are theories, as opposed to facts, doesn't deserve to be heard.

 

[Despain]

Literally, atheist means without religion.

Literally, atheist means without god(s).

 

[Mundane]

All religions are a way of structuring your divine sense of world perception. Most religions are similar. Any religious hatred is stupid. Especially between Atheism and Christianity.

I myself have no hold with a specific religion. I do not attend church because I do not believe in God or Jesus, and because I feel church's are corrupt money harborers. I do not pray to God or anyone for that matter. I feel that the world has been created through a natural process and that everything within it is divine. We are one large entity and no one force could possibly rule us. I could give more detail, but a lot of it derives from Tibetan Buddhism and Hindu.

I believe Atheism is entitled to it's own religion because of what Ven stated, it believes. I don't consider myself an Atheist, because I consider some other possibilities of divine faith, but nonetheless, I do not believe in a god. Now I'll find myself saying "God damn" or "Jesus Christ", which pains me, because I don't believe in them.

My answer is simply this. Atheism should be more socially excepted and all the arrogant pricks who try and dull the faith of others with Atheism should fuck off. You can't expect to convert anyone, we are past the medieval times and everyone is entitled to believe in anything they want - Atheists, Christians, and Muslims alike.

 

[e]

Well, there's not much to add to that. You pretty much summed it up.

I mean, there is little debate here. What do atheist worship? Theoretically, nothing. If they do worship a substitute god (i.e. : science), then they're mistaken.

EDIT : Well, I realize my comments were making me look like a douche. I shouldn't post in the Symposium while playing a game; makes for alt-tab, post a short comment, alt-tab, play, alt-tab, and so on. Just ignore these. I'll post something constructive once I'm done. My bad.

 

[Olivia]

Very Well said Venetia and Mundane.

I have seen many anti-Religion Nazis on Youtube, who attack you on the slightest sense if you're religious or not.

However like I am agonostic, not religious until I find a religion I deeply understand, not all atheists are religion bashers. Just a few idiots here and there who probably don't understand a damn about religion and post things out of context and can't leave things alone.

 

[Marcus]

The problem with Atheism (and the problem with religion, science, and OPINIONS in general) is that there are dozens if not hundreds of different little twists that people add because they follow the entire doctrine/belief but disagree with certain points.  Just like you have catholics and protestants (who both believe in Jesus so they're both Christians) and atheists and secular theologists (both are atheists but one is technically a religion). 

Atheism itself doesn't mean you don't believe, it means you reject.  There is no God because there is no reason to believe in God.  It isn't about belief in the nonexistence, it's about KNOWING God is nonexistent.  Atheists reject God.  That's it.

However, atheism can be a religion.  Theravada Buddhists reject a deity, thus they are considered atheists.

 

[Venetia]

Right. I was only speaking to the misguided people who think that the belief that there's nothing puts them at a higher standard because they're being "intellectual".

I think it's fine to believe whatever the hell you want. You can believe that the Earth was farted out by a giant turkey and that when we die we go to Butterball land. I don't care. Just don't try and force that shit down peoples' throats by saying you're right.

Really, this could be directed toward any religious bigot, but today I was harassed for my non-belief by a prig atheist who said their way was the "way of science", and that pissed me right off. I said "anything's possible, really ..." and they were all, "Just look at the facts!" >_<

Can't everyone just mind their own damn business? Is it so hard?

 

[Cruelty]

doesn't the lack of a deity kind of make it .. not a religion?

btw the most pushy atheist isn't as pushy as the least pushy christian. theyre both equally annoying though.

 

[Venetia]

doesn't the lack of a deity kind of make it .. not a religion?

Buddhists lack a deity, too. It's not the deity that makes a religion, it's a structured set of beliefs.

 

[Marcus]

doesn't the lack of a deity kind of make it .. not a religion?

Religion has nothing to do with gods (bold for emphasis lol).  It is purely and 100% the belief in the supernatural and/or moral codes UNIFIED (that word is important) by faith, prayer, mantra, or spiritual/mystical experience.  You can be an atheist but if you believe that you've been touched by the power of dust mites then you're religious.  You can be an atheist who believes that the mind can overcome any limitation, it's still a religion because you're putting supernatural faith in something.

It's just the word "religion" has been bastardized for so long that whenever you say it people instantly go "OH RIGHT JEZUZ AND GAWD LOL"

Right. I was only speaking to the misguided people who think that the belief that there's nothing puts them at a higher standard because they're being "intellectual".

Oh, you mean elitists.  Yeah, elitists fucking suck.

You can believe that the Earth was farted out by a giant turkey and that when we die we go to Butterball land. I don't care. Just don't try and force that shit down peoples' throats by saying you're right.

THIS IS WHAT SCIENTOLOGISTS ACTUALLY BELIEVE

Really, this could be directed toward any religious bigot, but today I was harassed for my non-belief by a prig atheist who said their way was the "way of science", and that pissed me right off.

They worship science?  Isn't a bit... counteractive?

I'm glad I didn't meet that person in real life.  I would have been like "Hay, calculate the trajectory and force of my fist hitting your face!  GO!"

 

[mawk]

I've been waiting for someone to say this for some time. I'm not nearly as gifted with the English language as I'd need to be to express it as well as you have.

Personally, I think people can believe in whatever they like, but generally have no business trying to make other people believe the same thing. People should join/leave religions based on their own thoughts, experiences, and opinions, not because someone is actively trying to convert someone else to a particular viewpoint. Sadly enough, that's what a lot of the above-mentioned "cool kid" atheists seem to be doing. It's entirely possible not to believe in god without being an ass about it, just as it's possible to believe in god without copious use of explosives. And I'm still here, aren't I?

 

[Ninjitsu]

If atheism is religion, "albino" is a suntan.

Atheism, by definition, is the absence of theism. If you cannot say "I believe in a Deity/God/Supreme Being" then you are an atheist. If you are not a theist, then you are an atheist.

There is a big difference between positively believing that a thing does not exist, and simply lacking belief in it's existence. In many cases, atheists will say "That God does not exist", not because they choose to do so, but because, from the description of the God, it cannot exist due to contradictory attributes. In the same way that a square circle cannot (and therefore does not) exist, a God defined as (for example) all-knowing, yet cannot see into the future, cannot and does not exist because the definition is self-contradictory. If you describe your God with self-contradicting attributes which make it logically impossible, then I may safely say that such a thing does not exist as described. This is not faith - this is reason.

...I'm not nearly as gifted with the English language as I'd need to be to express it as well as you have.

You stated your point eloquently enough.
By the way, Hmm.... I wonder who the explosives slur was aimed at...?
I read Venetia's original post, and it seemed to me she wanted that sort of thing out of this topic.

 

[mawk]

By the way, Hmm.... I wonder who the explosives slur was aimed at...?
I read Venetia's original post, and it seemed to me she wanted that sort of thing out of this topic.

Stop trying to take me out of context. If you saw my post for more than the trees, you might have an idea of what my intent was.

I myself am a practicing Muslim, and believe I am well qualified to ridicule the extreme factions of my own religion. It was not the main point of my argument, but merely an example of what idiots we can become if we let our pride in our religion get out of hand. My actual post regarded my stance on attempts to convert me to atheism.

 

[Ninjitsu]

Same here, so I believe I believe I'm qualified enough to say that they shouldn't be considered "factions" of the religion at all.

Back on topic though, and no this isn't directed at Miek or any other one person, I'm asking rhetorically.

If someone asked you about unicorns, would you say "I believe there are no unicorns", or would it be more honest to say "I do not believe in unicorns"? These are two different answers. Nobody disbelieves in unicorns purely as a matter of personal faith.

If you believe that unicorns do not exist, then may I say that you a member of the "No unicorns" religion? Is it a matter of faith that unicorns do not exist? Can I come along to your non-unicorn church with you tomorrow?

 

[Rare]

The entire argument over whether atheism is really a religion is mainly based on personal opinion and some bias.  It all really depends on what people consider to be classified as 'religion'.

The Columbia Encyclopedia (6th edition) defines religion as this:

Religion a system of thought, feeling, and action that is shared by a group and that gives the members an object of devotion; a code of behavior by which individuals may judge the personal and social consequences of their actions; and a frame of reference by which individuals may relate to their group and their universe. Usually, religion concerns itself with that which transcends the known, the natural, or the expected; it is an acknowledgment of the extraordinary, the mysterious, and the supernatural. The religious consciousness generally recognizes a transcendent, sacred order and elaborates a technique to deal with the inexplicable or unpredictable elements of human experience in the world or beyond it.

Here's how the World Dictionary defines Atheism:

Atheism is the Philosophical denial of the existence of God or any supernatural or spiritual being. The first Christians were called atheists because they denied Roman religions but the term is now used to indicate the denial of Christian theism. During the 18th-century Enlightenment, David Hume, Immanuel Kant, and the Encyclopedists laid the foundations for atheism. In the 19th century, Karl Marx, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Sigmund Freud all accommodated some form of atheism into their respective philosophies. In the 20th century, many individuals and groups advocate atheism.

Let's start with the first part of the definition of a religion:

Religion a system of thought, feeling, and action that is shared by a group and that gives the members an object of devotion; a code of behavior by which individuals may judge the personal and social consequences of their actions; and a frame of reference by which individuals may relate to their group and their universe.

Atheism is classified as a system of thought, feeling, and action.  Atheism is the direct rejection that there is a god.  Obviously, atheists also belong to a group.  Notice that the definition never says you must believe in a god to be part of a religion (the mentioning of 'supernatural beings' in the second part of the definition has the word 'usually' preceding it).

In addition, it is not required for you to attend any specific place for worship either (atheists have nothing to worship).  So even if you don't attend a church, mosque, etc. that doesn't mean you aren't part of a religion.  This brings me to my second point.

There is a fine line between "believing there is no God", and "not believing there is a God". 

'Atheists' can generally be classified into two categories:

People who don't think there is a God, and people who outright reject there is one, let alone even the possibility of one.

The first group probably makes up for 90% of Atheists today.  These types of people are usually 'crowd followers' that only say they are atheist because they are looking for a way out of their actions, or want to be 'classified' as something.  This is not what really being an atheist is.  Again, going back to the definition of what Atheism is, it is a literal rejection that there is a 'higher being'.  Actually saying you are atheist is saying you hold a firm faith (notice the word faith here in relation to religion) in that there is no God.  You aren't second guessing yourself here.

Sorry if anyone already stated this...I didn't have time to read through the posts.

EDIT:  To the prick that said 'if people don't believe in the big bang, they don't deserve to be heard', that is completely your opinion.  Personally, I have a strong belief in God and you saying that is just as bad as so-called 'Christians' 'forcing ideas down throats '.

 

[Clizzz]

I'm with Nin. As an Atheist, It's either "I don't believe in God" or "I don't believe there is a God", there is no straddling the fence. Scientology (Tom Cruise) is the religion if those who believe that science has an answer for everything. Thus it is a religion. Atheism means lacking a religion.

Personally, I'm a SDA, means I worship MY God on Saturday, and I keep the entire Sabbath holy. I have several Atheist Friends. However, I don't look down my nose at them, or brow beat them about how their not saved. That's their choice and they have their own lives.

It's not right for Religious people to spite people with their pride, and it's not right for Athiests to go on manhunts for Christians or any other faiths for that matter.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

I love how people keep coming in to "defend" atheism as if people were getting it wrong.

 

[mawk]

Ninjitsu, I apologize for being indelicate. I seem to have forgotten that some people take their faiths much more seriously than I do. Whether the extremists are a "faction" or not is, in my opinion, a semantic argument and won't do anyone any good. What's important is being nice to people to sort of counteract what other people are trying to do. But let's drop this here, we're getting off topic.

You know, Clizzz, there might just be a third demographic that just don't bother themselves with theology. If someone hasn't decided either way because they just don't care about it, I'd say he's neither atheist or religious.  Just, uh, secular -- outside the matter of religion entirely. What's the point of grabbing someone by the shoulders and trying to convince them they're atheist, anyway?