Abortion: Parental Consent

[sixtyandaquarter]

Yes, I am already fully aware that there is an abortion thread already.  It was horribly hacked, and I was the one who cleaned it out, so I'm fully aware of it..  It resides here: http://rmxp.org/forums/index.php?topic=283.0, if anyone cares.  But this thread is not about the entirety of possible abortion debates.
Let's worry less on one grand topic, and go straight to the specifics.  And to start off this, what I hope will be a trend, let's get to the practices of teenage abortion.  Or more directly, the practices of parental consent involved in abortion.

Forget if abortion itself is moral or not, let's leave that to the courts.  For the sake of this symposium topic:
ABORTION IS LEGAL
ABORTION IS MORAL
TEENS WILL HAVE ABORTIONS
There.  So don't go all pro life on me.  Leave that to the more appropriate topic linked above (or hey, try your hand at a new topic if you want - new blood isn't always bad).

Abortion among a teenage populace is a scary thing for people.  There are Parental Involvement laws that make notification of a pregnancy and a consent for abortion a mandatory.  They exist in 43 of the US states, but are only enforced by 32.

These laws, or at the least a majority of, only apply to teens under 18, naturally.  And there is a bypass, a parental proxy if you will, if in fact the parents or legal guardians are unable to be involved.  Many exclude certain medical emergencies, which generally would like other life or death situations and the sort, involve a doctor and/or the supervising presence at hand to make any and all decisions needed.

Now here rises some points, and I will start you off if you need them, by giving you some.

In some cases, in some places in the US, you can legally have sex and have a child at the age of 16.  You can, drop out of school legally, and get a job at the age of 16.  You can in fact live on your own, with your own money, without any problems from the courts at the age of 16 - should you have to, regardless of whose roof your under, be forced into such a situation as having your parents/guardians sign a paper allowing you to have an abortion?  Why?

Another note, the parents can "force" a mother to have a child, in this case.  A strong religious family can refuse to sign a piece of paper allowing their 16 year old child to have an abortion - thus forcing her to carry said child, and give birth.  Could the same not be said for parents should be allowed the ability to "force" a child of their own into having an abortion?
Should the pendulum not swing both ways?  Why?

What of the "birth control" argument?  The "three after pill" -har har, get it? bad joke parade!- where a teen (or an adult) finds out they are pregnant, but didn't plan on it.  A condom, birth control pills, and the just suggested morning after pill are all available to teens.  Condoms are practically given away by some schools and other places for free to students.  Other schools and even some clinics give free birth control or morning after pills.  Some places allow a teen to get any of the three in "secrecy" without identification, or notice to the parents.  If they can do such things, should they not be allowed to have an abortion in the same manner?  Why?

What about safety?  Teenagers are strange little people.  Not quite adults yet, and still heavily childish.  Prone to bouts of chemical changes inherit in puberty  that causes strange behavior and such in many people for a good length of years.  This includes heavy emotional responses.  Could a teen be forced into telling their parents that not only had they had sex, but also would have an abortion - regardless of what the possible response to either would be from their parent - and not be afraid?  Especially if they knew, or found out, that the answer to "Abortion please?" would be a dead set no.
Would they not possibly try the "home made remedies"?  Falling down stairs, massive drinking/drug use, and other possible more dangerous actions (hello Mr. Coat Hanger).  Is this not a possible concern, when other teenagers have gone as far as suicide to hide their habits?  Why?

There.  Four starter points in case anyone needs it.  And one last time I will stress this:
FOR THE SAKE OF THIS ARGUMENT ABORTION IS FULLY LEGAL AND MORAL!!!
Any pro life/choice arguments will be redirected to another thread, or asked to start their own.  A repeat, either by the same person or not WILL result in an official warning or worse.
I have to stress that because I know it's going to happen, so there it is (twice), so don't say you weren't told.

As a side note, you can if you want involve the issues of the would be father's involvement, and his parents if you really wanted to split a hair.  Since the whole set up here is the would be mother, and her parents (like most abortion deals, leaves the father out of it entirely), so yeah.  If you think they should have a say you can post that, or anything involved.  Just not the morality or legality issues.

 

[NunoAle]

Well, no one really knows me, but, to start my opinion, I'll have to state where I'm from. I'm from Portugal.

In Portugal, the abortion matter was this great national debate about one year ago. And what was decided was horribly stupid. Even a comedy group we have here called 'Gato Fedorento' (Stinky Cat) (They are like the portuguese Monty Phyton) made fun of it. You see, in here abortion was voted on legal. But, for some strange reason, you CANNOT do it. But what happens if you do it? Nothing at all! So you ask - "but isn't it legal?" and everything repeats.

Abortion is actually legal around here, but people can't do it because a medic can refuse to do the abortion, and some clinics have a no-abortion pollicy.

With this, I will start my point:

So, basically, you're 15 and have an unwanted preagnancy. You wish to get your baby out of you. But they won't let you, neither your parents, neither the medics. So, what will you do? Ruin your life, basically? Well, that's not a great idea. An unwanted preagnency can ruin a life, revolve everything. around. So, if you try to get the baby out yourself, you'll be blamed with suicide, you CAN be blamed with murder, and it's illegal. So, what now? Keep a baby?

Look, if teenagers are around, have the liberty to walk around anywhere, have the liberty to have sex and be responsible for their action, why can't they do an abortion? Everyone tells them to fix the problem they arranged, so, why can't they fix this one? It's HIGHLY unfair. They could even be responsible during the act of sex, and just have bad luck! So, will you blame them?

Or you consider teenagers not apt for society and prive them of all this, or you give them the responsibility of an adult. You can't have both ways. Sure, most pregnent teens can't still contribute for society, but will they contribute better with a child they cannot support?

In my opinion, no abortion should be prohibited. People need control in their lifes. If you give people the responsibility to get condoms, protection, contraceptive ways, you can give them the responsibility for what they caused.

This is my opinion based on the NO MORAL subjects. And, finallizing, admiting abortion actually IS LEGAL, abortion should be done by anyone who wants to and had conscience of what they done.

 

[Anglachel]

I think it's ridiculous that teenagers need consent from their parents for an abortion. I really don't even know how to argue it.

In some cases, in some places in the US, you can legally have sex and have a child at the age of 16.  You can, drop out of school legally, and get a job at the age of 16.  You can in fact live on your own, with your own money, without any problems from the courts at the age of 16 - should you have to, regardless of whose roof your under, be forced into such a situation as having your parents/guardians sign a paper allowing you to have an abortion?  Why?

Such a double standard is absurd. If you can be independant at 16 you parents should have no right to have total control over such a huge descision in your life. Surely if you are reguarded as mature enough to earn your own money and live in your own house you can be given responsibility over your own sex and family life.

 

[Brewmeister]

Given the parameters that abortion is Legal & Moral (It's normal / ok / good). It should be treated like any other kind of surgery. And in all but emergency situations, elective surgery. Can a 16 yr. old get their tonsils out, have plastic surgery on a non-fatal injury scar, or have the webs between their toes removed without parental consent? NO

Teenagers are strange little people.

I think that is the key here. We, as a society have decided that 18 is the point where "most" people are rational & responsible enough to make their own decisions and take responsibility for ALL of their actions.
Of course, there are many exceptions. A 17 yr old can be "tried as an adult". A 16 yr. old can be "Emancipated". But in most states (or is it all now?) you can't legally drink until 21. Why is that?

Society has also recognized that MOST people between 18-21 are still not responsible enough to remember to find a place to crash, take a taxi, or walk home when they're hammered.

Face it. The law is a law of averages. I know several 15-16 yr olds who are perfectly capable of surviving on their own. I also know many adults (21+) who are still, for all practical purposes, children! Sadly in some cases those 'chidlike' adults are the parent(s) of the responsible minor(s). It happens.

As far as the 'double standard' argument goes....    BUNK!
You know as well as I do that a child who is coddled, overprotected, spoiled, and not allowed enough freedom to make mistakes will be a completely useless adult at 18.  There will always be a struggle between a teen battling for their autonomy, and the parent who's job is to guide them toward making the right decisions.

The freedoms that you enjoy through your 17th year are a 'training exercise' and don't become 'official' until you're 18 and your parents can no longer be punished for your mistakes.

Can you tell this is a 'parent's' argument? (I have a 20 & 18 yr. old who both still don't have their proverbial heads completely out of their proverbial asses.)

Should a minor be legally allowed to make the decision to have, or not have an abortion? In all but a few cases, NO.

Are there ways around the general rule? Yes. In the case that the minor is better equipped to take care of them self than are their parents, they can petition for an emancipation hearing. If the court determines that they are responsible enough to make their own decisions, then they are essentially pronounced "an adult" complete with the paperwork to prove it, and since they no longer have a legal parent or guardian, can authorize their own surgery.

As a closing thought, if you were a pregnant 16 yr. old, would it be better to have to hide it from your parents, and suffer the stress of having to make the decision on your own, or with only the comfort of a pubescent boyfriend...
or make the decision together with the people who's primary objective in your life is your health & well being?

Be Well

 

[Marcus]

i never understood why incredible debates go on about fucking abortion when we (as in the entire world's population) should focus more on contraception.  every teenager should know what birth control is and how to properly use it (all they taught in my school was condoms and my little sister who's a freshman in highschool and 10 years younger than me confirmed the same).  the idea should be teenagers NOT getting pregnant; abortion should be the final option.

but man, birth control is so confusing and it can be really embarassing for a 15 year old girl to walk into cvs and purchase it.  i literally saw some cheerleader or something standing in the contraception isle at safeway for 30 fucking minutes picking up condoms, putting them back, picking up condoms, putting them back then when she finally took them to the counter the cashier gave her this eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil leer.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

but man, birth control is so confusing and it can be really embarassing for a 15 year old girl to walk into cvs and purchase it.  i literally saw some cheerleader or something standing in the contraception isle at safeway for 30 fucking minutes picking up condoms, putting them back, picking up condoms, putting them back then when she finally took them to the counter the cashier gave her this eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil leer.

And I always see the same and the reverse, where boys of the same age do the same, and eventually settle on a pack of condoms or what not and almost get gradulationary looks from the guys behind the counter.

And yes I made up a new word.  Gradulationary.  It sounds like a word, it should be a word.

Though true, more people argue about the abortion.  Why?
Because it's a "death" a "murder" a "killing" for some, so naturally it is the FAR more controversial.  Teaching kids about condoms and safe sex?  We don't want that, we want them to not have sex - so keep it all taboo and when they do "fuck up" and have their li'l pregnancy they can be an evil sinning whore either way.

Either by having sex in the first place, or by having sex in the first place on top of being a "murderer".  Either way someone gets to press their morales a li'l deeper.

 

[Dissonance]

Abortion is actually legal around here, but people can't do it because a medic can refuse to do the abortion, and some clinics have a no-abortion pollicy.

...

This is my opinion based on the NO MORAL subjects. And, finallizing, admiting abortion actually IS LEGAL, abortion should be done by anyone who wants to and had conscience of what they done.

Well, this is another interesting point here.  Generally abortion is rights of the mother vs rights of the fetus.  But what about rights of the mother vs rights of the doctor?

Should a surgeon be forced to perform an operation he or she does not feel comfortable doing (abortion)?  In Canada, the law basically solves it this way: abortion is available to anyone who needs it, however individual doctors can refuse to perform the procedure.  The doctors aren't saying "NO you can't have abortion", they're saying "If you want to get an abortion, you can find another doctor willing to do it - I don't want to be a part of it".  And that seems reasonable enough.