Making Villains Similar to the Most Popular Ones

[LightAndMagic]

@Seph: If you're going to use examples:

Boy A meets Boy B
Boy A discovers that Boy B kills people.
It it discovered that he has to kill people, other he will die.
People still think he's evil after learning this.

I do believe Reives and Andy are right in that society defines who, and who isn't evil. But, it's still very possible for reasons to be learnt, and for someone to still be disliked. Perhaps my example was a bit extreme, but I hope that you get the point. Yes, perception can change the case, however there are people who's acts are so terrible, that despite their reasoning, it is still loathesome to society, and thus, despite their reasons now being known, they are still evil.

 

[KhaoticErase]

I refuse to believe that. Thinking that about someone is evil in itself. Thinking that about someone, even after completely understanding them inside and out, is even more evil than anything that other person could've done.

 

[Reives]

That's one of the main clash of understanding here. I know that it feels wise to think like that and all, feeling like you are thinking about things deeper than others, but eventually you'll realize that it is not how things work in reality. I went through the same thing, pretty much.

Again, I refer to what I said earlier; it'd be like saying

"Satan's son was born evil, he couldn't help it, that is why he isn't evil".

 

[LightAndMagic]

So by your logic, profressed historians of Hitler, or Stalin, or many other horrible figures throughout history, are eviler than the people they study themselves?

EDIT: And sorry that I keep using Hitler as an example, it's just the most convienent.

 

[KhaoticErase]

Huh? No, I'm saying that the act of refusing to believe that someone isn't evil... is just plain preposterous.

If you know why someone did something, why would you still hate them? That's just selfish.

 

[lunarea]

There are 3 elements that come into play here.

1) Motivation -
The reasoning behind an action. Sometimes it's noble and selfless, other times it's greedy and selfish. It can even be brought from insanity.
2) Circumstance -
This is the situation surrounding the action. This includes things such as whether the world is going through a war, or if it takes place in a certain culture.
3) Action -
Self-explanatory.
The action itself isn't good or bad. It's just the cause of a certain effect.

As humans, we categorize actions as good or bad. This means that we categorize actions into things we want to see happen (desirable) and things we don't want to see happen (undesirable). Where a particular action falls depends entirely on motivation and circumstance.

What this means is that morality isn't a "black and white" type of thing. So, you can't have a clear and precise guide to what's good and evil. Because of this, we can conclude that good and evil are subjective - in other words, they're a matter of perception.

(This is where it gets tricky, so I'll try to make it as simple as possible)

We don't live in a vacuum. Our actions affect our environment. Because of this, it is acceptable for our environment to judge our actions (just as we judge our own). They are directly affected by our actions, therefore they can have a say in whether those actions are good or bad.

If those actions affect others far more than they affect us, their opinions and perceptions are more valuable than ours.

When we talk about a villain, we're talking about someone who has affected (i.e. hurt) others more than himself. If the majority of those people think he's evil, then he's evil. It doesn't matter that he doesn't think so, nor that he has supporters who agree with his view of the world. It also doesn't mean that he's not rational or isn't human (in some aspect). It simply means that the more valued judgment of his actions is that they're evil.

And because of the way stories (especially games) are set up, characters' actions will almost always affect others far more than they affect him/herself. Therefore, the opinion of the majority will be the deciding factor in whether the character is good or evil.

If you understand this as a writer, you can appreciate the importance of portraying this correctly - and this can help you add real depth to your characters. Including the reaction of the society (and I use this term loosely to mean anyone affected by a particularly extreme action such as murder or torching a village) makes the difference between the character being viewed as a hero, or viewed as a villain.

 

[LightAndMagic]

Or because you don't agree with their reasons? Like people have said earlier, just because someone has a reason doesn't suddenly make them moral, or their actions morally acceptable.

And you can not say that you haven't been mad at someone after realizing why they did something to you. Someone could come up and punch me, and I could discover their reason(don't like me, heard something I said about them, just for fun etc etc.), and still hate them for it. It's incredibly delusional to suggest otherwise.

EDIT: And Lunarea just perfectly described something that I've been trying to say.

 

[KhaoticErase]

Hmmm. Quite nicely put, Luna. Yes, situation is the key to determining whether or not an action is good or bad.

So let me ask you this:

Using Andy's example, let's say a person kills an animal out of self-defense. Some people might say that it was indeed out of self-defense (because it factually was), but the majority may call him evil for killing the animal.

So even though the views of the majority are wrong, is that person still evil?

 

[LightAndMagic]

Well that situation is completely unlikely. The chances of having a rabbit kill you are impossible, and if he killed the rabbit in "self-defense" I'm sure you can see why people might think less of him. If it were a bigger, more threatening animal, such as a dog, or a bear, people's opinions would probably change alot, or there would at least be a lot more understanding. So I really have to say that he is "evil" or at least cruel for killing a rabbit, that had little to no chance of killing him, when he probably could have just ran away, or incapicated it.

But, I highly doubt that you'll have to worry about something like that for video game villians, considering that is the topic at hand.

 

[KhaoticErase]

Yes, let's say it's a i duno, a dragon! and it's one of those socila drama games or sumthin..

 

[Reives]

Hmmm. Quite nicely put, Luna. Yes, situation is the key to determining whether or not an action is good or bad.

So let me ask you this:

Using Andy's example, let's say a person kills an animal out of self-defense. Some people might say that it was indeed out of self-defense (because it factually was), but the majority may call him evil for killing the animal.

So even though the views of the majority are wrong, is that person still evil?

First of all, since you are arguing the non existence of something, you can give 1000 examples of something where the subject at hand does not exist and be countered by one single example where the subject does exist. So giving examples where it does not exist is pointless for your point of view's argument.

Second of all, who are you to say that the majority would call him evil if he is doing it for self defense?

 

[LightAndMagic]

Then like I said, I doubt the majority of people would be pissed off at you for killing a dragon in self-defense. The majority of people would at least understand your dilemma, perhaps not agree with, but understand and accept why you did it. If you're going to use examples, make them logical.

 

[KhaoticErase]

I MEANT that they DIDN'T know it was for self-defense! They think he flat out slaughtered it.

If everyone was wrong about one person being evil, then IS that person evil? That's what I've been trying to ask!

 

[lunarea]

Using Andy's example, let's say a person kills an animal out of self-defense. Some people might say that it was indeed out of self-defense (because it factually was), but the majority may call him evil for killing the animal.

So even though the views of the majority are wrong, is that person still evil?

If we assume that this was a reasonable decision for the people affected by it, then yes.

Does that mean that we all must agree with that assessment? No, not at all.

You are free to make your own judgment calls. You are free to say that there is no such thing as an evil person - and that people labeled as 'evil' are just misunderstood or bad at making decisions. Your understanding and judgment isn't wrong/bad/evil because it affects you and only you as long as you don't try to push your view unto others.

However, the opposite opinion isn't wrong either. And this is what people have been trying to have you accept: not that you're wrong, but just that there are other paths/opinions/views that are acceptable - even if you don't like them.

 

[LightAndMagic]

In your first post, you said it was in self defense, so sorry for the misunderstanding. And then Lunarea, once again, pretty much said what I wanted to say.

 

[Reives]

I MEANT that they DIDN'T know it was for self-defense! They think he flat out slaughtered it.

If everyone was wrong about one person being evil, then IS that person evil? That's what I've been trying to ask!

Oh, then that scenario isn't even a fitting example then. It's not that the public is ignorant of the reasons, but that the public acknowledges the reasons yet they are still not suffice for the actions condemned evil. In some cases, evil reasons, even.

And again, you've never replied to my Satan's son comparison that's been posted twice now.

 

[KhaoticErase]

Oh, fine.

Well, so much for all that. I guess I'll just have to move on to the "ending discrimination" portion of my mission.

Thank you all for this wonderful debate, and those that will be using the tut in the future. This debate is over, and I'm gonna go home now.

See ya!

@Reives: I'm not even sure where to begin with Satan. But I think I recall seeing a movie where Satan's son turned out to be the ultimate good. I think it was called Little Nicky.

 

[Reives]

@Reives: I'm not even sure where to begin with Satan. But I think I recall seeing a movie where Satan's son turned out to be the ultimate good. I think it was called Little Nicky.

Yeah, but that has nothing to do with it. :p And by the way, even in that movie 2 of the sons were evil.

Anyhow, yay for this thread going back to a tutorial. :>

 

[Gamelord]

Perfect tutorial!
I really, really want to begin with the bosses, but i haven't build the Starting town :sweat02:. I'll try to make some bosses where the audience have big anger against the boss, and some they feel really sad about. *going to notepad* *writing down*

 

[Despain]

I read this and was HORRIBLY disappointed. The article just downright gives BAD ADVICE.

I'm really glad you changed the name. It's much more suiting.