What should the world do about Africa?

[Feldschlacht IV]

No, I'm not talking about killing everyone, or glassing it and paving it over. But I'm currently reading an article about how Robert Mugabe's regime in Zimbabwe is responsible for raping, torturing, and killing thousands of women to demoralize the opposing political party, and between that and the shit that goes on in Sudan, the ridiculous inflation, the staggering rate of HIV infection, and dictators and wars all over the place, why doesn't the western world step in and do something? There are so many innocent people in every corner of Africa suffering, so why can't we help them out and make life a little better for them?

Why haven't assholes like Robert Mugabe been taken out already? Why don't we stop the genocide in Darfur instead of just yelling "HEY DON'T DO THAT?" Between the United Nations and the rest of the first world countries, what should be done about Africa? Should we do anything?

Discuss, please.

 

[Guest]

;D

 

[mawk]

the united nations seems pretty defunct these days. it's lost a lot of face since the Bush administration ignored its rulings regarding war in the middle east, and it simply doesn't have enough muscle since most countries are ambivalent or opposed to an organization that's supposed to keep them all in check. simply put, the UN doesn't have the strength it needs to handle people like Mugabe and Al Bashir on its own right now. hopefully this will change at some point in the future, but with the global economy in the state it's in and many countries drifting towards protectionism, it's definitely not going to be a quick fix.

there are efforts being made to improve standard of living in Africa, however, and you have to realize that no one can just sweep in and take an entire continent under its wing. it's messy, it's dubiously advisable, and recently not a lot of good has come from larger nations deciding that other countries' problems are their own. the problem is enormous and widespread, and there are organizations chipping away at the more accessible and immediately important issues (proper education regarding disease and birth control, for one,) and at the moment that's really all that can be done.

 

[Feldschlacht IV]

We should do nothing, it is not our problem and it effects us in no way shape or form.

I quote;

"Let's let millions of people die because that's "nature"? People whose only fault is being born in the wrong place? Not to mention Africa was raped and pillaged to satisfy European greed."

 

[mawk]

Not to mention Africa was raped and pillaged to satisfy European greed.

are you saying we should intervene purely out of guilt because of what colonialism did centuries ago

is this seriously one of your arguments

 

[Guest]

;D

 

[Feldschlacht IV]

Their economy and more or less everything else over there sucks, but it is not our problem, it is up to them to fix it.

I'm going to quote someone else for this view.

That's a very ignorant view. Uneducated people living in poverty are not in a great position to organize themselves, spread their message, or even openly question the system depending on who they are in society's hierarchy. There are organizations run by the country's own people springing up to combat some of the the problems. But it's not enough when the government has all the power, modern military might, and a penchant for violence.

Do you really think you would do anything differently when put into the same circumstances? It's very easy to think that you are somehow superior while typing about this in your luxurious western home or college dorm with your most likely free grade school and high school education, plenty to eat, and a social background reinforcing the idea that you as an individual really matter into your subconscious every day.

are you saying we should intervene purely out of guilt because of what colonialism did centuries ago

is this seriously one of your arguments

Of course not, but it's just a thought to toss around in one's head when one considers what helped contribute to this mess in the first place.

 

[Guest]

;D

 

[Feldschlacht IV]

You're right, I'm having this same conversation elsewhere so I'm sharing their views as well. Sorry about that.

I personally believe that people in a society have a responsibility to help each other. If not for your own moral reasons (which is relative), it can be for the progression of society as a whole. Do you know how many resources, space, and land is in Africa? Goods that could make your life more comfortable and enhance the standard of living? That could be a motivating thought for sovereign powers to intervene and help out the situation there.

 

[Guest]

;D

 

[Feldschlacht IV]

No, it's helping along basic world trade. Africa is one of the best untapped places on Earth. Undeveloped land, living space, minerals, natural resources, etc. Helping along totalitarian, protectionist, warring countries into actual participants in the free market economy would be of great benefit and not greed at all.

 

[Guest]

;D

 

[Feldschlacht IV]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I said that a benefit, and an incentive of helping them is so they can become members of free world trade. You know, because that helps everyone, including themselves? Keyword, trade, as in, we're trading, as in, not taking their shit or exploitation.

 

[Guest]

;D

 

[Feldschlacht IV]

That's not true. Many nations that are under a dictatorship or totalitarian rule are highly protectionist and don't trade with anyone or they don't take advantage of the resources they have at all. Most of the trade and resource potential in Africa is largely untapped because of tribal wars and lack of any real central government or effort.

 

[Guest]

;D

 

[Feldschlacht IV]

Of course some things are exported to us, but my previous argument still stands. I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you. I'd like to see some other opinions.

 

[Vadon]

My basic opinion stated really quickly? I believe in Rawl's ideas for justice utilizing the theoretical original position to discover who is worst off in society. Then I believe it is a moral duty, or a categorical imperative, to help those in the worst position. This is not done for some sort of reward at the end of the tunnel or because it makes you feel better about yourself. You do it because it's right and it's your duty, regardless of your inclinations to do otherwise.

Longer version:
Now, there is some nuance to my beliefs in regards to the objectivity of morals and ideas of national sovereignty, but the above is my fundamental belief structure. I contrast with Arbiter in this regard. Arbiter doesn't want to help in Africa because he sees no benefit to helping them. I find this deplorable being as it's a mindset that views people as a means to and end and not as an end in and of themselves. I recognize that your inclination would be to act towards your own benefit and not dwell on the misfortunes of others. It helps to make you feel happy and there are many 'good' things that come from it. That doesn't mean I think you're doing the right thing.

Helping Africa, though, is a difficult concept. While I think it's our duty to help in any way that we can, I also hold a respect for the different national sovereignty claims. We can't just stomp our way in to each and every nation as we see fit whenever there is something going wrong. To some extent, we should allow their governments to care for their own people. I do, however, think that sovereignty should no longer be a factor when it is the government itself perpetuating the atrocities. I believe we should intervene in Sudan and Zimbabwe. I believe we should have intervened in Rwanda. I'm not altogether certain as to how we should intervene. I don't want a repeat insurgency like we've seen in Iraq. But I do think we as a society are ignoring the plight of Africans and we should find a way to mitigate the suffering where it is in our capacity. This complacency to suffering sickens me.

There's cultural considerations to take in mind. There may be regions that disagree with us at to what's right and wrong. Not everyone believes that a democracy is necessarily a good thing or in a legal structure that it is secular in nature. I don't think it's our job to enforce those concepts or preach our morality and beliefs. But people are suffering and that is a universal feeling.

I also don't think what we can gain from them as far as exports are concerned matter. This is human suffering and life we're dealing with. We shouldn't hold alternative motives when helping people.

 

[Guest]

;D

 

[Feldschlacht IV]

Good point, Vadon. I do too believe in the moral duty to help people and need, and Rawl's ideas are interesting and I think they serve as a competent model of that. However you are right in that it gets tricky when you're dealing in sovereignty. I think that's an intelligent viewpoint.