Was the story of Jesus a copy of Horus?

[dadevvtsvre]

I just watched the documentary Religulous the other day. It's a film by Bill Maher that explores the concept of religion. (albeit with a lighter tone) I thought it was decent: definitely thought-provoking, although like most things you have to take it with a grain of salt.

One of the things that struck me most about the movie was about the alleged similarities between the story of Jesus Christ and the Egyptian God Horus. In the movie, Bill claimed that the Egyptians created the story of Horus thousands of years before the story of Jesus, and that essentially Jesus was a copy of Horus.

The film claimed that there were overwhelming similarities between the two, such as:
-They were both born of a virgin
-Both born on December 25
-Both baptised in a river by a man who was later beheaded
-Both crucified
-Both resurrected three days after their birth and spotted by two women

I'm sure there were more, but that's what I can remember.

So after I finished watching the film I went online to verify whether this was true or not. And it seems most places on the internet disagree. They state that the story of Horus was much different-that he was never born of a virgin, not born on December 25, not crucified, etc.

It seems we have two conflicting sides here-one which believes the similarities between the two stories, and one that does not.

What do you think? Do you believe that Jesus was really a ripoff of Horus, or do you refute that? Obviously the vast majority of Christians think the latter, but I'm not Christian and I'm don't really think that Jesus was really a copy. It's tough to say unless you really know your Egyptian history. I encourage you to do some research and look around, see what you can dig up. This topic is something that really interests me. Anyway, what are your opinions?

 

[Guest]

;D

 

[e]

Actually, most religions at some point or other borrowed from other religions in order to attract new converts. It's a simple process; you want to convert a population which believes in a god, with a foundational myth, a set of rules, feasts, etc., so you incorporate some of it in your religion (not all, mind, but some, slowly so that people can adjust themselves to it).

The converse is also true; sometimes, people adopt your religion but integrate portions of their previous religion/beliefs, which eventually become canon.

You have to keep in mind religions are man-made, so obviously they'll be influenced by societal and natural constraints, which explains why so many of them celebrate equinoxes and so forth. I remember reading something about Jesus being just another prototype of the Sun child (i.e.: Horus, Mithras, Dionysus, etc.).

If you're interested by that, I encourage you to read the works of Alvin Boyd Khun and his Sun myth theory.

 

[Eddie]

I do not believe that Jesus was a ripoff story of Horus. For one, Jesus's crucifixion was recorded by the Roman Empire during the time of Pontius Pilate. A whole civilization evolved based on this event, and I think that in and of itself speaks volumes of the authenticity of the story of Jesus Christ. While I may not necessarily be a christian, I do believe that the event occured. I don't denounce that Jesus was divine either... BUT... it is not possible in my own mind to know whether he was truly the son of god or not. It happened thousands of years ago. I guess that is why most call Religion an "act of faith".

As for the similarities you mentioned... For one, There is no actual evidence on Jesus's recorded birthday. All they know is that it was sometime during the cool season in Judea. Because it was still mildly warm, most people speculate that his birth occured during the month of December, because the winter doesn't reach its harsher climates in those times until about mid February. The general consensus is that Christ was born sometime between mid December and mid January. No actual date has been evidentually provided. As for their birth? So what if they were born in the same month. Big deal. I have the same birthday as Franklin Roosevelt's wife. Does that mean I am going to one day be the First Man of the United States of America? Not likely. And the fact this it is merely coincidence is supported even more with a broader time span of a month.

Most people love to thrive on the drama that some conspiracies offer. This happens with most religions... most politics.... People are amused by superstition and will always find a reason to poke at anything and question it... especially their food. : /

Considering the time-line between Horus and Jesus, I think the dates would be rather irrelevant. The other things I can not attest to as I do not know much about the story of Horus.

 

[Incognitus]

Many of the oldest stories are adaptations of earlier myths.

Originally, apparently the story of Jesus has no relation to what we know now, and was only adapted into that format by people at a later date, based on the *symbology* behind the story of Jesus.

While you're on this sort of thing, you should look up the Hyksos migration, and the story of the man who was, or was part of the inspiration for the historical Moses - a man who was also based in part upon a recurrent myth: being found in the rushes is also a recurrent myth!

 

[Eddie]

Many of the oldest stories are adaptations of earlier myths.

Originally, apparently the story of Jesus has no relation to what we know now, and was only adapted into that format by people at a later date, based on the *symbology* behind the story of Jesus.

While you're on this sort of thing, you should look up the Hyksos migration, and the story of the man who was, or was part of the inspiration for the historical Moses - a man who was also based in part upon a recurrent myth: being found in the rushes is also a recurrent myth!

"Symbology? Now that Duffy has relinquished his "King Bonehead" crown, I see we have an heir to the throne! I'm sure the word you were looking for was "symbolism." What is the ssss-himbolism there?"

xD

 

[-Silver-]

As for the similarities you mentioned... For one, There is no actual evidence on Jesus's recorded birthday. All they know is that it was sometime during the cool season in Judea. Because it was still mildly warm, most people speculate that his birth occured during the month of December, because the winter doesn't reach its harsher climates in those times until about mid February. The general consensus is that Christ was born sometime between mid December and mid January.

This just shows how confusing his date of birth really is. I had been informed in my RE lessons at school that his birthday was in march, but a quick tour of the interwebs came up with 14th May in 6BC, and that's from a religious site (You know, the type of Christians that admit the bible is wrong, and still try to make their religion seem valid).

Having studied Ancient History at A levels I quickly saw that the story of Jesus is borrowed from a multitude of previous religions. So many religious martyrs from the time that Jesus was alive were based on the whole death/resurrection concept, and with the virgin birth. It was after learning this that I really started to question my faith and eventually discarded it. Studying ancient religions and seeing your own religion's lies reflected in the dead beliefs of old gods is pretty upsetting, and I even did the typical 'holding my hands over my ears and blocking it all out' thing at first.

But hey! What do you know! Christianity has merged so many different ancient religions into its story book that it's almost impossible to count them all. And Dadevster, good sir, you are correct. Horus is one of those religious stories that Christianity has borrowed from. The December 25th part is widely accepted as a lie these days, and like Eddie pointed out, the crucifixion certainly happened. But the virgin birth, baptism, and death/rebirth parts are all borrowed from Horus and various other myths.

-Silver-

 

[e]

What? When did we find recorded evidence of Jesus? I'd like sources; not to be nitpicky, but just because I'm honestly curious. As far as I know, there was never one single piece of historical evidence of Jesus...which is decidedly odd, since the Romans recorded everything.

 

[-Silver-]

What? When did we find recorded evidence of Jesus? I'd like sources; not to be nitpicky, but just because I'm honestly curious. As far as I know, there was never one single piece of historical evidence of Jesus...which is decidedly odd, since the Romans recorded everything.

Unfortunately, this is one of the Christian religion's classic arguments for their faith. "There is more evidence of Jesus' existence than Caesar's!"
Though i'm pretty sure they're counting the bible as evidence there... there is still, apparently, a lot of evidence to show that he was around at the time. What some religious people don't realize is that this evidence of a man called Jesus existing, isn't automagically also evidence that he was the son of God.

-Silver-

 

[Eddie]

What? When did we find recorded evidence of Jesus? I'd like sources; not to be nitpicky, but just because I'm honestly curious. As far as I know, there was never one single piece of historical evidence of Jesus...which is decidedly odd, since the Romans recorded everything.

Unfortunately, this is one of the Christian religion's classic arguments for their faith. "There is more evidence of Jesus' existence than Caesar's!"
Though i'm pretty sure they're counting the bible as evidence there... there is still, apparently, a lot of evidence to show that he was around at the time. What some religious people don't realize is that this evidence of a man called Jesus existing, isn't automagically also evidence that he was the son of God.

-Silver-

Exactly.

 

[Eddie]

Edit: Er... sorry about the Double Post... don't know how that happened.

 

[Eddie]

Actually, let me revise my last comment. Looking through some things, most things that were referenced about Jesus were done so in Jewish writings, notations in the Koran, and of course, the writings of the twelve apostles. The only thing that comes to mind would be the Acts of Pilate. This document is purportedly an official document from Pilate reporting events in Judea to the Emperor Tiberius. It was mentioned by Justin Martyr, in his First Apology to Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, and Lucius Verus. He said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the "Acts of Pontius Pilate". Some people however, question it's validity.

I do think though, that the evidence of many jewish writings, notations of the Koran, and of course... the Bible, is enough sufficient evidence to support that such a man existed. Though it is possible like in many writings, (a prime example would be the Illiad) that the truth of the story may have been largely exaggerated. There is evidence that supports the Theory that Troy may have existed and furthermore that it was destroyed about 300 years prior to the creation of Homer's Illiad, but obviously, much of the exaggeration was created through oral tradition and of course Ancient Religion of that time period and place in the world. But that is just an example.

Heck, maybe he even did do all those things and the Bible is very accurate. I'm not going to say that it is one or the other. I simply do not know... I think it is safe to say, whether divine or not... Jesus of Nazareth was probably a real historical figure. The Muslims and the Jews who are obviously not Christians have accepted that he did exist.

 

[Venetia]

I do not believe that Jesus was a ripoff story of Horus. For one, Jesus's crucifixion was recorded by the Roman Empire during the time of Pontius Pilate. A whole civilization evolved based on this event, and I think that in and of itself speaks volumes of the authenticity of the story of Jesus Christ.

what how is this evidence of anything

a.) ancient egyptian faith = happened long (longlonglonglonglonglonglong) before the time of Pilate

b.) the civilization evolved----uh who is to say it wasn't just civilization evolving on its own as societies often [always] do


anyway

horus has many different stories involving his creation, rule, death, etc.

This is the most commonly accepted one ...

The Story of Osiris, Isis and Horus: The Egyptian Myth of Creation
From Geb, the sky god, and Nut, the earth goddess came four children: Osiris, Isis, Set and Nephthys.
Osiris was the oldest and so became king of Egypt, and he married his sister Isis. Osiris was a good
king and commanded the respect of all who lived on the earth and the gods who dwelled in the
netherworld.

However, Set was always jealous of Osiris, because he did not command the respect of those on
earth or those in the netherworld. One day, Set transformed himself into a vicious monster and
attacked Osiris, killing him. Set then cut Osiris into pieces and distributed them throughout the
length and breadth of Egypt.

With Osiris dead, Set became king of Egypt, with his sister Nephthys as his wife. Nephthys, however,
felt sorry for her sister Isis, who wept endlessly over her lost husband. Isis, who had great magical
powers, decided to find her husband and bring him back to life long enough so that they could have
a child. Together with Nephthys, Isis roamed the country, collecting the pieces of her husband’s body
and reassembling them. Once she completed this task, she breathed the breath of life into his body
and resurrected him. They were together again, and Isis became pregnant soon after. Osiris was
able to descend into the underworld, where he became the lord of that domain.

The child born to Isis was named Horus, the hawk-god. When he became an adult, Horus decided to
make a case before the court of gods that he, not Set, was the rightful king of Egypt. A long period
of argument followed, and Set challenged Horus to a contest. The winner would become king.
Set, however, did not play fair. After several matches in which Set cheated and was the victor, Horus’
mother, Isis, decided to help her son and set a trap for Set. She snared him, but Set begged for his
life, and Isis let him go. When he found out that she had let his enemy live, Horus became angry
with his mother, and rages against her, earning him the contempt of the other gods. They decided
that there would be one more match, and Set would get to choose what it would be.

Set decided that the final round of the contest would be a boat race. However, in order to make the
contest a challenge, Set decided that he and Horus should race boats made of stone. Horus was
tricky and built a boat made of wood, covered with limestone plaster, which looked like stone. As the
gods assembled for the race, Set cut the top off of a mountain to serve as his boat and set it in the
water. His boat sank right away, and all the other gods laughed at him. Angry, Set transformed
himself into a hippopotamus and attacked Horus’ boat. Horus fought off Set, but the other gods
stopped him before he could kill Set. The other gods decided that the match was a tie. Many of the
gods were sympathetic to Horus, but remembered his anger toward his mother for being lenient to
Set, and were unwilling to support him completely.

The gods who formed the court decided to write a letter to Osiris and ask for his advice. Osiris
responded with a definite answer: his son is the rightful king, and should be placed upon the throne.
No one, said Osiris, should take the throne of Egypt through an act of murder, as Set had done. Set
had killed Osiris, but Horus did not killed anyone, and was the better candidate. The sun and the
stars, who were Osiris’ allies, descended into the underworld, leaving the world in darkness. Finally,
the gods agreed that Horus should claim his birthright as king of Egypt.

- horus had a father: osiris. osiris was partially dead at the time of conception, but isis herself was already a god. i'm not sure how a god can die and then come back and then re-die (and then still be capable of correspondence from hell) but whatever.
- horus and set sparred a whole lot and eventually tied. then the court of gods decided horus was a better candidate for the god of the heavens than set since he'd never killed anyone.

badda bing badda boom

i dont see how thats like jesus

i've read a lot of egyptian myth and i cant really say i've read too many that are really close to christian text. i'm not really saying maher is WRONG, I just dont know of any evidence or stories which lend this to fact. i think it's more him perpetuating a myth that's been floating around for a long time (famously, with david icke). i've seen a lot that correlate heavily with roman shit but not so much with judeo-christian. christianity seems to borrow more heavily from ancient pagan faith.

 

[Incognitus]

Many of the oldest stories are adaptations of earlier myths.

Originally, apparently the story of Jesus has no relation to what we know now, and was only adapted into that format by people at a later date, based on the *symbology* behind the story of Jesus.

While you're on this sort of thing, you should look up the Hyksos migration, and the story of the man who was, or was part of the inspiration for the historical Moses - a man who was also based in part upon a recurrent myth: being found in the rushes is also a recurrent myth!

"Symbology? Now that Duffy has relinquished his "King Bonehead" crown, I see we have an heir to the throne! I'm sure the word you were looking for was "symbolism." What is the ssss-himbolism there?"

xD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_symbology

The story of Jesus and the story of Horus is just Saint symbology with a greater importance to some people.

Both of them have the overlays of the fish, and the death and subsequent rebirth of an mortal incarnation of unconditional love.

Do try to keep up.

What? When did we find recorded evidence of Jesus? I'd like sources; not to be nitpicky, but just because I'm honestly curious. As far as I know, there was never one single piece of historical evidence of Jesus...which is decidedly odd, since the Romans recorded everything.

Unfortunately, this is one of the Christian religion's classic arguments for their faith. "There is more evidence of Jesus' existence than Caesar's!"
Though i'm pretty sure they're counting the bible as evidence there... there is still, apparently, a lot of evidence to show that he was around at the time. What some religious people don't realize is that this evidence of a man called Jesus existing, isn't automagically also evidence that he was the son of God.

-Silver-

That is true.

Most Biblical Archeology is the equivalent of finding the remains of a hut in Troy and concluding that Helen had a 'face that launched a thousand ships'!

 

[Eddie]

Many of the oldest stories are adaptations of earlier myths.

Originally, apparently the story of Jesus has no relation to what we know now, and was only adapted into that format by people at a later date, based on the *symbology* behind the story of Jesus.

While you're on this sort of thing, you should look up the Hyksos migration, and the story of the man who was, or was part of the inspiration for the historical Moses - a man who was also based in part upon a recurrent myth: being found in the rushes is also a recurrent myth!

"Symbology? Now that Duffy has relinquished his "King Bonehead" crown, I see we have an heir to the throne! I'm sure the word you were looking for was "symbolism." What is the ssss-himbolism there?"

xD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_symbology

The story of Jesus and the story of Horus is just Saint symbology with a greater importance to some people.

Both of them have the overlays of the fish, and the death and subsequent rebirth of an mortal incarnation of unconditional love.

Do try to keep up.

What? When did we find recorded evidence of Jesus? I'd like sources; not to be nitpicky, but just because I'm honestly curious. As far as I know, there was never one single piece of historical evidence of Jesus...which is decidedly odd, since the Romans recorded everything.

Unfortunately, this is one of the Christian religion's classic arguments for their faith. "There is more evidence of Jesus' existence than Caesar's!"
Though i'm pretty sure they're counting the bible as evidence there... there is still, apparently, a lot of evidence to show that he was around at the time. What some religious people don't realize is that this evidence of a man called Jesus existing, isn't automagically also evidence that he was the son of God.

-Silver-

That is true.

Most Biblical Archeology is the equivalent of finding the remains of a hut in Troy and concluding that Helen had a 'face that launched a thousand ships'!

It was actually just a joke. I thought maybe you may have seen the movie Boondock Saints, as that was just a quote from it, lol. Not an intentional insult

 

[Incognitus]

It was actually just a joke. I thought maybe you may have seen the movie Boondock Saints, as that was just a quote from it, lol. Not an intentional insult

Fine. It's a bit irresponsible though to make a joking insult from an obscure source.

 

[Gen0cide_]

Jesus also shares many similarities to certain greeek gods. In fact, to quote a documantary on this very subject, the bible makes a mockery of itself when it leaves the prototype Jesus texts in the old testament.

If you read about Joseph, the basic facts are very similar, he had 12 brothers instead of disciples, he was a teacher at a very young age, he became a preacher at the age of around 30, he was betrayed by one of his followers for money, and he died. Cant remember if he rose again, as I read the bible a very long time ago. (Hell I probably wouldn't remember that if it wasn't for Zeitgiest)

 

[Xaixis]

Well I have heard this argument from many people and would like to know if this is true.

As a turning agnostic, I wish to know whether a major part of my turning point is completely false.

 

[MCsephiroth13]

Moses rewrote the bible when God gave it to him. That's what I believe.

 

[j4kl1ng3r]

Jesus also shares many similarities to certain greeek gods. In fact, to quote a documantary on this very subject, the bible makes a mockery of itself when it leaves the prototype Jesus texts in the old testament.

If you read about Joseph, the basic facts are very similar, he had 12 brothers instead of disciples, he was a teacher at a very young age, he became a preacher at the age of around 30, he was betrayed by one of his followers for money, and he died. Cant remember if he rose again, as I read the bible a very long time ago. (Hell I probably wouldn't remember that if it wasn't for Zeitgiest)

What this thread needs is for every person to go watch Zeitgeist. Google it, but before you come back to the thread, watch the end where they give all of their sources...