The lack of romance with female protagonists in games

[Perihelion]

So I've noticed that it's almost unheard of for a female protagonist in a game to have an explicit (male) love interest. The only exception I can think of is Xenosaga, whereas male protagonists have female love interests in a huge percentage of games. I assume that the reason for this is that the hardcore gaming market is still dominated by male players, and developers think, perhaps justifiably, that men aren't interested in feeling like they're in a relationship with a man. Is this true? Certainly a large part of the reason men hate romantic subplots in novels geared towards women is that the male love interest is always a shallow archetype (hot controlling psychopath) designed for maximum sex appeal, but if we remove the pandering and assume the love interest is a well-rounded, likable, interesting character, are men open to a romantic subplot with him, or does it still break immersion?

From personal experience the results of various polls I've seen around the internet, it seems like women are primarily interested in playing a woman and men are primarily interested in dating a woman. You see men play female avatars in single-player games significantly more often than vice versa, for example, whereas it seems that women are a lot more open to romancing a woman than men are to romancing a man. (Speaking personally, I pick the romance option with whatever character I like the most in BioWare games regardless of gender even though I'm straight. Most of the other female gamers I know are the same way.) Ergo, it seems girl/girl relationships are the most popular with both genders and boy/boy are the least popular outside of the yaoi fandom. Is this accurate?

Anyway, guys, what are your feelings on playing as a woman in a relationship with a man? I'm particularly interested in the responses of men who prefer playing as women in single-player games. Does intentionally taking on the role of a woman also mean you're open-minded to romance as a woman, or does that break immersion for you? I'm interested in honest responses, not politically correct responses, so I'd appreciate it if everyone posted even (especially) if the answer is "no I don't like that." What makes a relationship acceptable or unappealing to you? I assume there's a line somewhere in the wide spectrum between slight subtext and explicit sex scenes where you start feeling like the work isn't targeted at you, so where is it?

 

[Xilef]

I think it is a result of the audience being overtly male, I have seen some RPG Maker games where female protagonists have crushes on male NPCs.

It didn't stand out to me as a weird thing, the only thing I didn't like about it was that it seemed like forced writing, it didn't seem right for a strong character to start chasing the heels of some tuxedo-mask guy.
On one hand you'll have a warrior who is saving the world and doesn't take any crap, then during a cutscene they start blushing and tripping up on what words to say because there's a bloke in a top-hat standing nearby.

I think if the genders were swapped it would be the same deal, if my male hero is all powerful but then suddenly gets all sweaty and nervous because he saw some boobies then I'd be pretty annoyed (I've seen a LOT of games that do this to their protagonists).

I don't think it's a question of gender roles, I think it's that no-one has bothered writing a good romance where the woman is the player character, in the same sense that no-one has yet written a good gay romance and I believe this is all due to the target audience that market research gives to writers.

You'll have the odd 15 year old white boy who will throw his arms up in the air if his character is a gay, black, old woman because "I can't get into the game if I can't relate to the character waa waa waa"; I think this is an invalid opinion as people can't relate to their personal idea of stereotype but we can easily relate to other people as humans, if you can replace a female lead character with a male and it doesn't feel weird then you've written the character well, and it should work vice-versa with a blend of different genders and sexualities.

That is how I think a romance should be, identifiable regardless of who the person is involved in the writing and consistent with the characters.

EDIT: I'm a straight man, was I not supposed to post? :U

 

[Perihelion]

No, you are supposed to post! I appreciate people's input. I agree that bad romance isn't a gender-specific problem and that in theory it should be fine as long as the writing is good, but I'm wondering whether that's the way it is in practice. I think there is definitely some sort of societal pressure against men identifying with relationships with men. Like, everything that's targeted at both genders has a male protagonist and usually has a romantic subplot with a woman (see: every movie ever), but you never ever see the reverse. Is that just because people are male by default in our media, so there's a smaller sample size, or because identifying with a relationship with another man makes straight men vaguely uncomfortable? I think a lot of men are probably fine with it, but I'm wondering how many.

 

[Xilef]

No, you are supposed to post! I appreciate people's input. I agree that bad romance isn't a gender-specific problem and that in theory it should be fine as long as the writing is good, but I'm wondering whether that's the way it is in practice. I think there is definitely some sort of societal pressure against men identifying with relationships with men. Like, everything that's targeted at both genders has a male protagonist and usually has a romantic subplot with a woman (see: every movie ever), but you never ever see the reverse. Is that just because people are male by default in our media, so there's a smaller sample size, or because identifying with a relationship with another man makes straight men vaguely uncomfortable? I think a lot of men are probably fine with it, but I'm wondering how many.

The male by default thing annoys me, it is a truth of society at this moment and women are treated as a minority (That's 50% of the world! Incredible that sexual equality is STILL a problem at this day of age!).
I can't remember the last time (If any) that a "select your gender" defaulted to female, whenever I have that option I tend to randomise which one is selected by default (And I'm yet to see a non-gender option, even in my own games :I ).

What I think is most against romances in writing are people who see roles as the focus; I've seen wedding photos where the comments underneath were "You're just posting this photo online because you're two men and you want to make a statement about gay marriage", you'll end up with people who see an inkling of romance as "Ugh you're just trying to bring romance in to appeal to people who like romance stories", I think you'll have to actively write a romance that doesn't focus on the fact that the main character is a female or that it's gay or similar.

You can even go the other direction entirely, there was an American sitcom called "The New Normal" that (in my opinion) was terrible, it was not funny and it was basically a sitcom about normal boring life and the mother who was against two gay fathers having a child but wasn't going to do jack about it because whatever.
I feel that sitcom put the gay at the focus of attention and forgot to write anything at all, it was a step forward in television but it felt like a massive forced step and not a clever one, I can imagine that some audience members were pissed off that they had a gay family on their television, if the show was any good then I think it would have been palatable for many more people.

 

[coyotecraft]

I can see how it wouldn't appeal in Japan where contracts for pop idols restrict them from having boyfriends because it would ruin the fantasies of their male fans. That just sounds crazy to me, but whatever, not my culture.

I wouldn't give a female protagonist a love interest simply because:

Maybe this is American culture, but besides beauty standards women resent any media that suggests they need a man to be happy.

 

[coyotecraft]

I kinda want to argue semantics. Peri says protagonist, but I think she means Point of view. Jrpgs have multiple protagonists. I mean Tidus x Yuna, Squall x Rinoa; Their romance isn't going to change by switching the point of view from one to the other.
I think the type of games Peri is referring to are the ones with silent protagonist P.O.V. aka the player. Where romance is one way and the player chooses to go with it or not. Like Dragon Age or maybe Dating Sims. But then Dating Sims are big in Japan. They go by different names, all sorts of sub genres. I've never played them. Otome Games. Literally "girl game". B-game. B for boyfriend I assume?
I think the sentiment I posted above would outline the reason why it wouldn't be as popular where I am.

 

[Perihelion]

No, I'm not talking about silent protagonists. I'm talking about games where the protagonist and point of view character are the same person and aren't player self-inserts. For example, Lightning in FF13 or Lara Croft in the reboot. Also, dating sims and otome games are another issue entirely. I'm talking more about traditional story-driven games.

Maybe this is American culture, but besides beauty standards women resent any media that suggests they need a man to be happy.

This is actually really not true if you look at works marketed specifically at women. Most of them have a romantic subplot. But as soon as a work is intended to appeal to both genders and retains the female protagonist, the romantic subplot goes away.

 

[coyotecraft]

FF13 had Snow and Serah, they were still protagonists, it was just Lightning's p.o.v. (Or technically Vanille who narrated?)
I haven't played the new Lara Croft. But I think she was always suppose to be a strong single woman, and I hear the reboot had some sort of sexual harassment which people thought ruined her character by making her a victim. Idk.

Sorry, I play mostly RPGs. Almost all the female characters have an interest in someone (dead, alive, or incestuous). Looking at my shelf of games I can only find a few female protagonists without a love inteste.
There's Nariko from Heavenly Blade. Aqua from KH:Birth by sleep. Throw Lara Croft in and you see a pattern. They're action games which usually have limited cast. and limited story. Who are they going to fall in love with? The bad guys? I mean, Zack asked Aqua out on a date but she couldn't make any promises.

 

[Perihelion]

I think I'm being a little unclear here. The issue I'm addressing relates specifically to the case where the player is taking on the role of a point of view character who is in an explicit romantic relationship with a man and that relationship gets a lot of development and screentime. Something along the lines of Tidus/Yuna or Squall/Rinoa, except the girl is the point of view character. There's a big difference between the protagonist technically being in a relationship and that relationship actually having a lot of impact on the story. I did forget about Serah and Snow's relationship, but that's because it's completely informed and irrelevant. If they didn't mention it once or twice in passing in 13-2, you would never guess from the way they behave.

I'm also not saying that Lightning or Lara Croft should have had romantic interests (it was definitely not appropriate for their stories), merely listing them as examples of the kind of characters I'm talking about. I dislike that romantic subplots are thrown into so many places where they don't belong, but they should be on the table as an option if it's important to the story. I haven't played the other games you mentioned, but how are the relationships handled?

TL;DR: The issue is not so much whether female protagonists sometimes technically have love interests but to what degree the player is expected to empathize and identify with that relationship. There's a world of difference between being told a character is in a relationship and watching it develop while being expected to enjoy it and root for it.

 

[coyotecraft]

I don't understand. If it's linear storytelling, what difference does it make if the p.o.v. is Yuna instead of Tidus. Or Rinoa instead of Squall. Other then the fact that they're at different places at different times. The story remains the same. Their relationship stays the same.

 

[Alypt]

I remember reading one of the devs for Remember Me ran into a similar problem. He wanted his female protagonist to have a love interest and *gasp* they would kiss! But the publishers said that would make the audience uncomfortable (due to publishers thinking all their player-base are per-pubescent boys or something). Article Here

And no, that relationship stuff didn't make it into the final game to my knowledge. (The game itself was okay, not great, not bad. It had a lot of potential but fell flat in a lot of departments).

Even though that is just one sample, it does make me wonder how many other female-led games with romance were put down/edited. If this one game is an indication, it is definitely a problem.

 

[Perihelion]

@coyotecraft: Well, that's what I'm asking. Why are there no relationships like that in games where the point of view character happens to be a girl? It shouldn't really matter if it's the same either way, right?

@Alypt: I remember hearing about that too. It seems like there's this notion that you can't force a presumably male player to assume the role of a character who's romantically involved with a man because of homophobia or something. So the question becomes is that being excessively conservative or is there some basis in reality for that concern. It probably varies a lot based on the age of the audience, too. Maybe fourteen-year-old CoD fanboys would think that's, like, totally gay, man, but perhaps an older player base would be fine with it.

 

[coyotecraft]

Ok, I was stuck on "lack of romance". I was like -it's still there- it's not going to change with a different p.o.v.

Was that publisher, um, Japanse? I'm just saying that would explain it. That's kinda their culture. The way they approach storytelling is a little different. A story is less plot development and more focused on sentiment. So the p.o.v. sounds trivial to me, but I suppose it would make a world of difference over there.
A girl kissing a guy.
West: it's the development that counts
East: it the sentiment that counts

When anime is dubbed they usually fill silent scenes with ad-lib stuff because people are uncomfortable when nothing is happening.

 

[Alypt]

@Perihelion: That's the thing I don't get. Isn't the average age for gamers somewhere around 30? They're also the consumers who have the most disposable income to boot.

@ coyotecraft: They went to a few different publishers before going with Capcom. They didn't specify which publisher said that (for obvious reasons), but due to them being a French game studio, I'm going to take a gander and say it was a western publisher or at least the European division of a Japanese company.

 

[bluehazed]

whatever floats the boat

what's the point in writing characters if you can only stick to one subset of reality because another one makes some people uncomfortable

that's just stupid b

 

[coyotecraft]

You're not just writing a character. You're selling them. Are you reaching the right audience? Don't forget you're an entertainer.

If you tell a joke and no one laughs then you're a bad comedian. Or it was the wrong crowd, in which case you're still a bad comedian because you're suppose to know these things.

Edit: I shouldn't type posts at 3am. The fuq I'm saying?

 

[Xilef]

If you're a good writer you should be able to write these things for everyone, look at Harry Potter's broad audience.
I think romances towards male characters are an item that we don't see due to audience perceptions, I believe it would survive the audience's taste if it was well written and not a focused 'issue' in the player's mind.

coyotecraft, if FF8 was from Rinoas perspective it would be a very different story, games are made as a one-sided story from the POV of where our camera is stuck and FF8 would show case this romance towards male characters pretty well (both Seifer and Squall) if the POV was from Rinoa.

The writing would have to be very different to deal with Rinoa's side of the story, there are a number of key moments in the story when it is Squall's POV exclusively and the writers would have to deal with the player character falling in love with Squall without making lots of people who are still uncomfortable with their sexuality feel alienated from the experience.

 

[Ellie]

without making lots of people who are still uncomfortable with their sexuality feel alienated from the experience.

But for 50% of the population, i.e. girls, it's equally awkward (if they're uncomfortable with their sexuality) to play as a male with relationships.

 

[Xilef]

But for 50% of the population, i.e. girls, it's equally awkward (if they're uncomfortable with their sexuality) to play as a male with relationships.

If it is badly written, I expect that a well-written experience translates well regardless of who it involves and who you are.

Back to Harry Potter, Harry's romances didn't put off women reading the book, but if JK wrote about Harry getting an awkward erection, joking with Ron about motorboating and tripping over words/saying dumb shit to Hermione to look cool then you're going to lose a lot of women and you'll be appealing to immature teenaged boys (which seems to be the target audience for a few games out there).

I bet it works the other way around with a boy being the love interest, just that no one has placed a main character into that situation in games. A lot of books have done it already.

Metal Gear Solid is pretty much the most chauvinistic series when it comes to male to female relationships, even I felt very awkward when Otacon was like "No! I loved Sniper Wolf!" and I've read that some 14 year old boys considered it the most touching moment in gaming, it was so badly written! It turned Sniper Wolf from a powerful villain into an object to be loved for Otacon who wets himself earlier in the game, completely waters-down her character.

 

[coyotecraft]

Aren't you taking the concept of role-playing a little too far? The character's sexuality isn't your sexuality. It's not any different from watching a female lead in a movie or TV show. Or reading it in a book.

Even without empathy there's still sympathy. From the female's p.o.v. guys might not understand why she friend-zoned the nice guy and chased after the bad boy. But that doesn't matter. You'll still understand how she'll feel if the bad boy returns her love, or betrays it, or she has to compete with a different women.
Universal concepts here.
Romeo and Juliet, their families forbid it. Not so much romance as it is tragedy . But if you can follow one forbidden love story you can follow others i.e. gay or incest.
It's just a story.

Spoiler: ff8 tangent

Edit: And FF8. Their relationship was based on the Sorceress's Knight sub story. It was Seifer's romantic dream that he was suppose to play out with Rinoa. But he didn't make SeeD and joined Edea who was a real sorceress. Like wise, once Rinoa became a sorceress Squall chose he'd be her knight, even though he spend the whole game saving her from like 3 or more near death experiences. From Rinoa's p.o.v. she fell for him pretty early on. The only thing we would miss is when Squall realizes he's still devoted to her even though she's in a coma and she can't give him orders anymore. Obviously the player would be lost from Rinoa perspective since she never saw the dreams and had no connection to Ellone. But what I meant was that the story points would play out the same. Instead of Squall thinking "The Timber owls are jokes" it would be Rinoa reading him "He thinks we're nothing but a joke."
I wouldn't presume add content or change the plot by switching P.O.V. to make it work. We don't really need to hear Squall thoughts because the other character's know what he's thinking.