Older Civilization's Smarts?

[whiteshadow]

After reading the post about human stupidity, I got to thinking: is our generation of humans actually smarter than that of say...the Greeks, or Egyptions? Do you think that we rely to heavy on technology that if it was to completely wipe out, we wouldn't be able to function?

We are supposed to be the smartest generation of humans BUT I believe it only seems that way because of electricity. Think about this: without electricity, compare our generation to that of older civilizations. Do you think we would be able to create the things they could without our current technology?

 

[Pyromanga]

Yeah, it's entirely probable, It would take longer, but it would be possible.

 

[lunarhiro2002]

hm...all our intelligence comes from what privious generations discover and remember.

But if you move out of any industrialized country most people don't have electricity. Many people wonder what would happen to the United States if a nuclear bomb was detonated at high altitude. Its suppost to destroy all electronics on the contenent with a EMP burst. There are plans on how to deal with it but I think that for a time it woudl be hell. people would go crazy. But then I think people would realize its not that bad wihout a cpu or lights and learn to work around it. But without electricity a lot of people woudl die in cities.

I think if you dropped people off from todays world into the Greco-roman era they woudl be killed. And I dont think they'd be able to invent electricity, eh maybe with a hydroplant or a windmill. but in terms of metals and things like cars no way. You'd have to go around the world to get all thsoe materials and it took generations to put in place the vehicals which allowed globalization.

I think ancient man was as inteligent as modern man if not more. They're plagued by the same problem we are. Not knowing how to invent the next great thing that will make everyones lives easier. Inteligence is bountiful but the inspiration to make something like a wheel or, print press is rare. Most people are too concerned with the day to day.

 

[macchia]

We absolutely are. Other civilizations were advanced for thier time, but are very much archaic now. You understand, Rome was civilized for the time because at the time most of Asia was composed of Nomadic tribes. But then, they wiped out entire species in Gladiator matches and slept with little boys so often they gave it a name(eromenos, I'll save you the google). We're as smart as the information we're presented with. Ignorance is becoming more and more intolerable by people as the cause of ignorance(lack of insight/information/the full picture) dissipates via the internet and the 'pseudo branch' of government that is the press. We're smarter now more than ever(and not just in technical prowess, philosophically as well), and its because of that that ignorance is far more infuriating to people. So stupidity, I guess, stands out more when there's less of an excuse for it.
What you're asking, though, isnt relative to intelligence. I mean, duh, someone from 2000 years ago probably could use a bow and arrow better than me just like 200,000 years ago a caveman could use a pointed rock better than him. Civilization depends on fertile soil, take that away and Egyptians couldnt survive. That doesnt mean they're stupider than the nomads who dont depend on fertile soil. Dependency isnt nessecarily a sign of lacking intelligence. We only NEED fast cars, for example, because we're getting about 100 times more done per day than people used to.

 

[~Atlaswing~]

Back then they dont shave coz there is no steel alloy for making shavers..

I think we are much intelligent right now, but physically, a lot of people are weaker. We depend our work on machines. We are intelligent but because of human knowledge, we're lazy.

Humans invent stuff because of necessity. They think if they made that, they'll have something good to achieve.

The difference between ages of human civilization smartness is:
In the past, people use their smartness to discover more things for the future generation. THe present people use their smartnes to build more things to discover things for them...

 

[Roman Candle]

The average egyptian peasant was probably about as clever as the average bus driver today. Just less educated.

At the moment we describe the universe in the most accurate way of any previous generation, but whether or not we're the most innovative, I'm not really sure.

 

[FlippyD]

I think you're thinking about "knowledge" and not intelligence. I'd say intelligence has remained the same throughout the ages. Just because we may know more about our world, doesn't make us any more or less intelligent. I think intelligence comes from problem solving, of which, our generation has a bit more than that of the previous generations. The potential might've been there for those in past times, but there was no generally intuitive society to reinforce that potential, nor the free-time allotted to them to engage in such activities.

 

[macchia]

"I think intelligence comes from problem solving, of which, our generation has a bit more than that of the previous generations. "

It could be argeued its merely a direct correlation to our maximum population and its ability to interact with itself. That is to say, if 6 billion people existed 10,000 years ago with a method of universal communications, they would progress as fast as we are now. And that, if WE lost our method of universal communication and 90% of the population we'd again progress as fast as as we did 5,000 years ago even with the foundations we have now.

 

[Guybrush]

I think that ixis said it quite nicely. As a whole, humanity has not become more intelligent over the years - we are progressing by building upon the foundations laid by those who came before us.

However, I do think humanity could easily survive some sort of technology-destroying nuclear war. Think of it this way:

Even if all electronics were wiped out right now, it wouldn't matter. We could rebuild.

If, when James Watt was alive, all steamengines had suddenly been destroyed, it would have been easy for them to make more. They knew how to, after all.

Destroy all electronics. Or, better yet, all technology. Take humanity back to the stone age.

It wouldn't be long before people made primitive villages and machines. Wheels, tools, writing. All of these would quickly be redeveloped. They took thousands of years to be made originally, but if you took them away now, it wouldn't take long for us to make them again because we have the knowledge. From those inventions, we could just progress. Basic tools lead to basic metallurgy. Basic metallurgy leads to more advance tools. More advanced tools lead to steam power. Steam power leads to electricity. Within a few hundred years, at the very most, humanity would be back where it is today.

 

[Roman Candle]

If all civilisation was destroyed now, then it would be very hard for the world to rebuild because we've used the most easily availlable resources that led to the discovery of technology that allows us to get at the harder to access ones.

 

[macchia]

Exactly. We "make" everything we need these days with 10 levels of seperation. But if those factories and computers shaping and molding metals, creating alloys, and shaping plastics are debunked, we dont know how to 'make' what the machines were making because they're made of a product wer can't create anymore and they're made by a machine we can't make anymore. So we have the idea of the plastic spoon, but we have to find a new method or dig up an old one. That's all we'd have, ideas of products we havent made personally by hand in nearly 100 years.

 

[Guybrush]

We haven't made plastic spoons in 100 years?

By the way, 100 years puts you at 1906. Plastics didn't go into wide production until during and after World War II, starting in the 1930's. So your argument really doesn't hold water.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

Whoa - wait a minute.

Okay, so if civilization failed, and for whatever reason all factories in the world were destroyed, why are we unable to do anything? Why are we in the stone age, if not worse, again?

Seriously, we made those machines. There are people who work at those factories, that's job is to know about the machine. They can tell you what each and every pipe and valve and glitchit is for. These whizgiz's are, yes, made by machine - but not because we don't know how to make them. It's just easier and less costly.

If the factories all went ka-boom, we wouldn't have to start at step one. We start from the last model, and downgrade whatever we can't create with the materials avaliable until we get something we can make. And we advance from there.

And besides, advancements don't come from civilization - civilization comes from advancements. Advancements don't dissapear, they can become lost - but nowadays it's very difficult to see someone who isn't capable of building a crank, lever, or pully system. We live several decades longer, we are much healthier, and most importantly many of us are educated. I can read and write, and understand 3 languages - plus I can count from 1 to 1,000. And while most common folk would know what "1" is, and that "1,000" is big, I'm sure most of common folk in ages mentioned wouldn't be able to do so.

Military men and women can count, often can read - but not always, and will most likely have some understanding, even if crude, of a forign language. Same goes, in general, to higher and more worked political and merchant based groups as well, back in the day. And I pretty much summed up half of, at least, the United States.

Bakers can still bake - they may not be able to know how to make the grain and flour etc... but a farmer can (and not all of this is done by machines). We simply downgrade our cars to horse drawn buggies again - or just drive the cars we have... - and team up the baker and the farmer. We take the guy who spent too many hours learning up on ancient war weapons and chainmail fantasies, and we put them with someone who works with metal. We take a carpenter and... well... there's really no one to team them up with. They can build us our factories, the metal dude could smith the machines, the baker and farmer can feed everyone, and I'll build the rope and pully systems that aline the machines back together.

Civilization's already fallen several times. In each region that had a "great" and "golden age" practically. Rome fell how many times? And each time heralded a new "dark day", but they didn't have to start from step one. Instead they carried on from where they left off.

All the machines can go. We still have the plans and knowledge to remake them. Unless all the educated people and the machines go, there's really nothing to it.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, this generation is in general smarter then people who lived a thousand years ago. You know why? Proper nutrition. Seriously. Without regular food and the right amounts of vitamins and minerals, humans can't reach their full potential, either brain-wise or growth-wise. A diet of turnips and the occasional rabbit is not a balanced diet and will result in a less than optimal human being. That's not to say there weren't individuals who were just as smart, but they were, in general, only of the upper class and had access to regular and nourishing meals during their childhoods.

Thanks to a good diet being available to all (who live in developed countries) the full potential of the human brain can be realized.

 

[Guybrush]

Yes, this generation is in general smarter then people who lived a thousand years ago. You know why? Proper nutrition. Seriously. Without regular food and the right amounts of vitamins and minerals, humans can't reach their full potential, either brain-wise or growth-wise. A diet of turnips and the occasional rabbit is not a balanced diet and will result in a less than optimal human being. That's not to say there weren't individuals who were just as smart, but they were, in general, only of the upper class and had access to regular and nourishing meals during their childhoods.

Thanks to a good diet being available to all (who live in developed countries) the full potential of the human brain can be realized.

Wow; that's actually a really good point that I hadn't thought about. Good job, ccoa.

And, to add to what you were saying, most upper class diets weren't "balanced" in the modern sense, even. The upper classes had access to finer, well-marinated meats and sweets (including sweetbread). So, while better nourished than the poor, they were still not in what one would call optimal physical and mental condition.

 

[Kojo]

Humans are the most adaptable and resourceful creatures on the planet. If all electricity was to go out this very second, life would go on. I'm sure we would eventually even go back to school. It is how the world has worked from the beginning. A civilization builds itself up, and then it falls, and we pick up the pieces and move on, based on prior knowledge. It is not a question of if we are smarter than we used to be, it is a question of how much we have learned.

 

[macchia]

We haven't made plastic spoons in 100 years?

By the way, 100 years puts you at 1906. Plastics didn't go into wide production until during and after World War II, starting in the 1930's. So your argument really doesn't hold water.

We've never made plastic spoons. We invented plastic and the mold for spoons runs through a machine assembly line. We MADE wooden spoons, and if we were rich are spoons were made of metal by whitesmiths. My point was we, personally, havent made many things we use in a long long time. We used to make practically everything. Someone way over somewhere Im sure remembers how to make everything, but do you? No you dont, and if that person can't tell you how to make everything you need (and they can't if technology just shuts down one day, the universal communication dissapears) you'll need to learn it on your own based on the idea of the object. We're 'smarter' than ever, but absolutely more dependent than we've ever been which makes us less smart in many ways. We're not a people who can survive alone anymore like a nomad. We're specialists, that makes us wholey dependent on one another therefore far less "smart" than our predessecors in that single mannor. And you just completely missed the point, so good for you.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

I had just wrote up a post detailing reverse engineering - but this post isn't about how we wouldn't be able to make spoons if we wanted to (although I used a rifle as my example). It's about how smart we are compared to our past generations. And so I delete my post, and am starting over, as to stay on track and not detour on how reverse engineering would prove that we wouldn't be at a lost if all the factories went boom, and our spoons were all gone.

Right, first... We are smarter. As I stated earlier many of us can count to 1,000 if we wanted to, starting from 1. We can go higher of course, but it's a nice round number to use as an explanation. Of course some of us can only count to 10 I'm sure... reguardless, I'd just like to point out something.

Formal education. School. Public or private, take you're pick. The point is, and I'll just use the "western" world as my base of topic when I refer to "we" or "us", we have a very structured education system. It, generally speaking, strives to become more difficult every few years. Just recently NYC public schools established a test all 3rd graders must take. If they fail, they can not be promoted to the 4th grade reguardless of what there grades were.

An 8th grade test also exists, but I don't think it's as harsh. The old standerdized testing, while often gets "easier", the newer mandatory tests (notice, not "standerdized") are becoming more aggressive and harder. High school used to be, at one time, the last schooling you'd most likely get. Not too long before that you were lucky to be in school. And from there backwards if you could count to 100, read and write, or speak 3 languages you were a wo/man of higher stock than the rest of the folk, even if you were poor.

Today mandatory 2nd language programs exist in many schools. I was forced to take a 2nd language class. I can understand 3 languages (I can only fluently speak my native tongue - but I always skipped school anyway), and do advanced math. Not one of my friends can't speak at least understandably in another language. Many are near fluent in another language. Back a few hundred years we'd be considered smart. Back to the time of "Rome", we'd still be pretty damn smart.

Our concept and understanding of logical structures grows with every generation. We teach our children more advanced structures every day. When I was in school I didn't need to learn cursive/script - but now it's mandatory. My father and my mother didn't even have needed high school diplomas for anything, me I'm getting by with a GED - but still. Theres how we are becoming smarter every generation.

Steven Hawkins, Einstien, Tesla, Gerraldo, Newton... yeah, there not known for there spoon making :p.

 

[Guybrush]

We've never made plastic spoons. We invented plastic and the mold for spoons runs through a machine assembly line. We MADE wooden spoons, and if we were rich are spoons were made of metal by whitesmiths. My point was we, personally, havent made many things we use in a long long time. We used to make practically everything. Someone way over somewhere Im sure remembers how to make everything, but do you? No you dont, and if that person can't tell you how to make everything you need (and they can't if technology just shuts down one day, the universal communication dissapears) you'll need to learn it on your own based on the idea of the object. We're 'smarter' than ever, but absolutely more dependent than we've ever been which makes us less smart in many ways. We're not a people who can survive alone anymore like a nomad. We're specialists, that makes us wholey dependent on one another therefore far less "smart" than our predessecors in that single mannor. And you just completely missed the point, so good for you.

Aren't you splitting hairs?

"We don't make plastic spoons! We make the plastic, we make the molds for the spoons, and then we pour plastic into the molds, therefore creating the spoons. However, the liquid plastic hardening is what makes the spoons. Not us."

That's your basic argument. That sounds like legalistic crap to me, no offense intended. Just because you don't carve it out of a block of wood with a stone knife doesn't mean you didn't make it.

As far as people knowing how to do stuff, you're treating it as though people will stop talking to each other if we lost technology. Look at history, though. People have a tendancy to cluster and form communities, sharing intelligence and splitting up tasks. People with the knowledge will pass it on to others in the community, and those people will go out and do the activities that they are taught.

 

[arcthemonkey]

"I think intelligence comes from problem solving, of which, our generation has a bit more than that of the previous generations. "

It could be argeued its merely a direct correlation to our maximum population and its ability to interact with itself. That is to say, if 6 billion people existed 10,000 years ago with a method of universal communications, they would progress as fast as we are now. And that, if WE lost our method of universal communication and 90% of the population we'd again progress as fast as as we did 5,000 years ago even with the foundations we have now.

Do you mean to imply that microprocessors have nothing to do with the speed our civilization or technology develops?

Microscopes?

The human genome project?

I'm just trying to point out that many projects and breakthroughs have a profound affect on the speed at which new breakthroughs are made, regardless of how many people are around.