Newt Gingrich's belief that the forefathers were Christians

[Diaforetikos]

Ok, I posted this topic in General Discussion, but no one replied. I didn't put it here first because I thought you guys would move it to the General Discussion section anyways. I'll try to turn this into a debate, so please hold out on moving it right away.



Newt Gingrich, former-something or other is taking a stand on the Christian side and is saying that was the forefathers and the early presidents were Christians along with JFK and Reagen. He has facts from sources such as the Lincoln, Jefferson, and Washington monuments and the Declaration of Independence.

I've read many places that say that they weren't religious. I just wanted to know where people stand on this topic. I personally believe that hes right based on his so called "facts." I haven't seen anyone else's opinion on this besides some blind, anger driven person's opinion.

The pilgrims were Christian based so it would seem obvious that they would want a country that was based on that idea. Also, you can't start a strong country without a common goal. Whats your thoughts on this?

Also, heres the video where I got my information. Skip to about 1/4 - halfway in the video to get to the good stuff: http://vidego.multicastmedia.com/player.php?p=g5944eu6

 

[Despain]

My question: so?

 

[Diaforetikos]

So...??
Lets say you played Resident Evil 4. You beat it, you love it. But there is a video that leaked showing you how the game was originally going to be(which there actually is). The game in the video looks so much better than the original. Now your upset about what you coulda had. Kinda felling the same way with this topic.

In the video he said that America was supposed to a Christian based country and thats why it sucks now because we fell away from it. I just summed up his words.

 

[decemberfox]

Methinks that be a good thing. You ever read the crap at chick.com? Imagine if EVERYONE in USA was like that.

 

[Diaforetikos]

Yea. There are extremists, not Christians. They are horrible about the way they handle situations.

 

[Despain]

In the video he said that America was supposed to a Christian based country and thats why it sucks now because we fell away from it. I just summed up his words.

That's a lot different from "lol george washington was a christian" because in all honesty it doesn't matter what our founding fathers worshipped.

 

[Diaforetikos]

Not what they worshiped, but what basis they wanted to create this country off of.

America's linear interpretation of their words found in the famous documents could have different meanings than what we believe. Not a fact, just an opinion.

People said that Jefferson wasn't a Christian because he said that there needs to be a wall of separation between church and state, which is true. But after he wrote that, he went to church. It was explained more clearly in the video.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

That video explained nothing to me and looked like random propoganda fever and a religious faith that fairly much extends to me as an "I'm right because... err, well look! I used the word God! :D"

Early in the video he says a line, a direct quote that uses the term "creator".  Don't forget a lot of these guys were smart.  They knew what they were doing, to an extent.  By saying that the rights come from a creator, what you are saying is to England itself, these rights are ours - not yours.  We have the right as opposed to you have given us the right.

A thing you see commonly is people starting to change certain terminologies.  "Women were given the right to vote" is starting to become "women were recognized with the right to vote".  There's a difference there.

Women were given the right simply means they didn't have it before.
Women being recognized carries the connotation of having the right, but having it in refute.  Denied right, but it's yours, you couldn't use it.

Many of the early settlers got away because of religious fever, and a lot of the founding fathers recognized that.  They were actually proud of that.  They chose wording carefully and selectively, and all this nut case (I don't care who you are, Gingrich is a damn nut) is doing is trying to solidify a belief.

Years ago I watched a show on the Stone Masons, of which some of our founding fathers were - including Jefferson I think (only one of the drafters of the Declaration was a member).  It showed all these nasty little things in an attempt.  They invented and created signs that appeared Satanic, the show was obviously anti Mason - the church is antimason, it's even illegal in parts of the Christian world.

The show came up with all these wordings in the Declaration of Independence and all these other papers.  They looked with their bias and modern day eyes, and saw modern day reasoning behind structure.  If they just realized the situation of the writings, it's more clear to see a near poetic level of pun and even tongue and cheek flavor - something our founding fathers are known for.

All of this is just that.  Made up signals designed to show a bias view as "fact".
It's like saying Jews are evil because they killed Jesus while going on a trip to Rome to pray, even though Romans killed Jesus to - but we like Roman Christians, they spread the word, so we forgot and alter our texts, our histories, and our bias.

 

[Kav]

So...??
Lets say you played Resident Evil 4. You beat it, you love it. But there is a video that leaked showing you how the game was originally going to be(which there actually is). The game in the video looks so much better than the original. Now your upset about what you coulda had. Kinda felling the same way with this topic.

In the video he said that America was supposed to a Christian based country and thats why it sucks now because we fell away from it. I just summed up his words.

hi rmxp.org @ using videogame analogy

All of this is just that.  Made up signals designed to show a bias view as "fact".
It's like saying Jews are evil because they killed Jesus while going on a trip to Rome to pray, even though Romans killed Jesus to - but we like Roman Christians, they spread the word, so we forgot and alter our texts, our histories, and our bias.

I'm glad someone brought up the topic of Romans. I don't get why these people are so highly respected by western civilization. When they raided my village, I felt nothing but a deep burning hatred and desire to get revenge on these foul fiends. They take the 'r' from the word 'friends' to use for the word 'roman' so that 'friends' becomes 'fiends'. This is just one example of how the Romans steal (another obvious one being that they completely ripped off the Greeks). The Romans founded their empire on war and pillaging. Is this really a civilization we should hold in reverence?

 

[Incognitus]

The Romans founded their empire on war and pillaging. Is this really a civilization we should hold in reverence?

Which civilizations should we hold in reverence then? Should we make a new topic to discuss this?


On Topic:
Basically everything "Steve buscemi's internet browsing history (chimp porn)" said. What was said in the 1796 Tripoli Treaty was serious. Jefferson's original wording for the Constitution was that "all men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable" and it was later changed by Congress.

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation.  But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity.  What has been the effect of coercion?  To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.  To support roguery and error all over the earth."

"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words.  And the day will come, when the mystical generation [birth] of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation [birth] of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature.  They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

"Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself."

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."

There's hundreds more examples, but I doubt that fruitcake Gingrich knows about them, or would even make the effort to find out.
                             


"...were Christians along with JFK and Reagen."

How Catholic JFK was is open to debate, and I assume he cites that comment by Reagen where he gets excited about the prospect of the End Times?

 

[RupertPudgington]

I am not sure about Washington and Lincoln, but Jefferson was a deist. For those of you that don't know what a deist is, a diest believs there is a god, but he does not meddle in our affairs. The diest veiw is often referred to as "God the clock maker" becuase many deists believe that god created the world then left the picture. Ben Franklin, another important figure, was also deist (He was also interesting in that he was quite the ladies man. He allegdly had several mistresses.)
        For those who said it doesn't matter what their religion was, that is only partly true. Since Newt and people like him are using the claim that the founding fathers were Christian as an excuse to try to pass religon based moral laws, it does matter.

 

[Diaforetikos]

Thats the last thing we need as a country is Christian based moral laws. I'm a Christian and even I think that would be dumb. You be the dictator of your own morals. Don't shove it down peoples throats.

One thing that I had a hard time getting was all the scriptures Newt was quoting from all the monuments and how the Washington Monument had a bible in it.

I do think this country was based on a Christian foundation, but the idea was lost as B.S. like politics and war and who is going to lead this country got in the way.

To Incognitus: I have to agree with you that Newt probably didn't give a second look at those quotes. Selective hearing, or in this case selective seeing. But the scriptures and references to the Bible and God still confuse. If they weren't Christian, then what was the use of putting quotes in important documents and on monuments. As to what country we should hold in reverence, we should start a new topic.

 

[Incognitus]

Selective hearing, or in this case selective seeing. But the scriptures and references to the Bible and God still confuse. If they weren't Christian, then what was the use of putting quotes in important documents and on monuments.

Because men put them there. Whilst the aim of the Constitution was to make a government seperate from religion, the fact remains that many people will still take their religion to the government. It's like the whole "One nation under God" and "In God we trust" thing. It's been argued for decades that these are in fact unconstitutional, but, you know... Tyranny-of-the-Minority-seeking-to-be-relected-by-the-Religious-Majority and all that.

 

[Sic Semper Tyranosaurus]

Thats the last thing we need as a country is Christian based moral laws. I'm a Christian and even I think that would be dumb. You be the dictator of your own morals. Don't shove it down peoples throats.

If this is the case, then you're insistence that they were good Christian boys shouldn't matter. They're long dead, well past the point where they can do either of those things.

To Incognitus: I have to agree with you that Newt probably didn't give a second look at those quotes. Selective hearing, or in this case selective seeing.

Actually, he was probably all too aware of them. Fundamentalists are just as good at purposely omitting information as they are at making it up

 

[Incognitus]

Actually, he was probably all too aware of them. Fundamentalists are just as good at purposely omitting information as they are at making it up
[/quote]

Are you suggesting that they might be dishonest?! Dishonesty is a sin, dude!

I agree with you actually. A lot of fundamentalists won't be aware of it, or willfully overlook it, but I think this is an example of someone trying to remain politically relevant

 

[___]

Well it's clear from the above posted quotes and voluminous historical evidence that many of the founding fathers were not Christian by any standard definition, and one must assume that they did not intend theocratic rule or a legal system favorable to a particular religion necessary to make this a Christian country. If they had intended that they would have simply declared Christianity the United States official religion rather than gone to great lengths to ensure that such a declaration was impossible under constitutional law.

The framers certainly all shared some level of moral values and believed in them strongly enough to overthrow British rule and establish a new country founded on them; an ignorant person, such as a religious fundamentalist, could easily claim that those values sprung wholly from the strictures of their religion and thus justify the idea that this was founded to be a Christian country and intended to exclude or disfavor people of other religious beliefs, ignoring all evidence to the contrary. That assertion, if accepted, would still be irrelevant in modern society and change absolutely nothing about how we live. The framers likely didn't intend, anticipate or desire many aspects of modern society and would probably be outraged or bewildered if they were resurrected today.

Really the whole argument is pointless and stupid, and the "Christian country" assertion is never going to be anything more than hollow rhetoric used to incite anger and frustration. Christian fundamentalists who believe that might feel they've somehow been cheated. The rest of us certainly feel that we've been cheated by a government that historically has been supportive of their beliefs, regardless of the intent of its founders.  Religious bigots are welcome to feel frustrated and disappointed about the whole thing and they're welcome to bitch and moan publicly but I'm not afraid they'll be effective and refuse to be goaded by it, content instead to move on and continue working to correct the mistakes of the past.

 

[kyonides]

Mmm, well there are people who descend from native american groups or have some Irish, Scottish ancestors that may have believed in such a things as banshees and gnomes or golden pots... Even so people don't always follow the same path their parents and forefathers did.

Anyway, no one is born as a Catholic, Hindu, Shitoist or anything else. It's a matter of personal choice, it doesn't matter when you make that choice, it's still your call and no one else's. What your forefather believed was just his personal belief, it's up to you if you choose to believe the same thing or to believe it in your own way, etc. Does any State force you to become religious?

 

[Dissonance]

One, I don't think they were christian, but rather they were trying to break away from christian assery (to an extent) goin' down in europe.

Two, let's assume they actually were Christian and intended the USA to be a fully Christianized country.  Why does that mean that it should be?  It's like hiring an architect to build a school, and then 50 years later when you convert it to a gym or an apartment building there's opposition citing the architect's original intentions for the building.  What matters is what people here and now want in their lives, not the superstitous ideals of a bunch of dead white men.

 

[Wolfgang]

The pilgrims were Christian based so it would seem obvious that they would want a country that was based on that idea. Also, you can't start a strong country without a common goal. Whats your thoughts on this?

America :: *face plams*

Diaforetikos :: The pilgrims were christian, but they were leaving a land that was telling them what they had to worship. This was the basis of the seperation of church and state. So that the government could not tell people what god/gods to pray to. If we had a "christian" based country, it would be the protestant version of vatican ruled Europe. More then likely, we would have been at war with Europe over that very difference in the protestant and catholic churches, resulting in many deaths. There have been more casualties in the spreading of Catholic Christian Faith then there has been in all the world wars combinded. Oh yes... we sooo missed out on having a great christian America.

 

[Dissonance]

lol necropostan