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Large Hadron Collider - End Of The World?

Zealo

Member

To people that dont know what the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is:
This massive machine is a particle accelerator of the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) that lies under the Franco-Swiss border near Geneva, Switzerland.
Basicly what this does is slam sub-atomic particles, named Hadrons, into one another, and see what state the universe was when it was "created" seconds after the "big bang".

but people have growing concerns that this might create a black hole that might swallow the whole world, meaby even the solar system.
 
ive heard these urban legends before, and let me say this, it is absurd down right impossible,

A black whole takes mass that is dozens of times denser than our own sun, it is belived that the universe is filled with what are called micro black holes but they are only the size of a single subatomic particle and would have no effect on the universe, if one were to be created it would be something like that,

with that said the more realistic possibity is that this particle accelorator which is in effect an enormous electro magnet, will have devastating effects on the earth magnetic field, possibly ripping a hole in it and allowing solar radiation to flood into our atmosphere, even then humanity would survive,

either way the fact is, there is not enough power to do either one, we are talking about a metal coil several miles long wrapped around a hollow tube with a sensor plate at one end, and assuming that there is even enough power coursing through this man made mega magnet to have any effect on our planet,

if spliting the atom out in the open wasn't enough to destroy the world smashing a few subatomic particles in a concrete bunker under france is definatly not going to do anything..... and if it does then no one will have to worry about eating snails again
 
Zealo":3pxj2yre said:
To people that dont know what the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is:
This massive machine is a particle accelerator of the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) that lies under the Franco-Swiss border near Geneva, Switzerland.
Basicly what this does is slam sub-atomic particles, named Hadrons, into one another, and see what state the universe was when it was "created" seconds after the "big bang".
I always assumed that it was build to proove gravity, a.k.a. find evidence of the "Higgs"-particle.

Zealo":3pxj2yre said:
but people have growing concerns that this might create a black hole that might swallow the whole world, meaby even the solar system.
And where exactly would the mass come from?

charnak":3pxj2yre said:
if spliting the atom out in the open wasn't enough to destroy the world smashing a few subatomic particles in a concrete bunker under france is definatly not going to do anything..... and if it does then no one will have to worry about eating snails again

I totally agree.

However, to get back to those black holes: It is believed that micro-black holes will arise, which can theoraticly exists in an extended version of the Standards Model (physics). These micro-black holes however wouldn't be harmfull, as they would decay before we can say "Kaboom". But then again, this is based on the Hawking radiation (thermal warmth from balck bodies - or something similar) which is never experimentally tested...

...who knows, we might have some holes there after all.

"Concerns remain regarding the verity of Hawking radiation and the possibility that a stable black hole and strangelets will be produced by the LHC.[27] According to CERN, if micro black holes were created by the LHC, a proportion would be trapped by the Earth's gravitational field and would start accreting matter.[28] Also, if strangelets were created in the LHC, some fraction would be produced slow enough that they would not break and would be free to grow.[27] To alleviate these fears, CERN has commissioned another study, which will aim to rule out any credible threat that stable micro black holes, strangelets and other phenomena could pose to the Earth.Concerns remain regarding the verity of Hawking radiation and the possibility that a stable black hole and strangelets will be produced by the LHC.[27] According to CERN, if micro black holes were created by the LHC, a proportion would be trapped by the Earth's gravitational field and would start accreting matter.[28] Also, if strangelets were created in the LHC, some fraction would be produced slow enough that they would not break and would be free to grow.[27] To alleviate these fears, CERN has commissioned another study, which will aim to rule out any credible threat that stable micro black holes, strangelets and other phenomena could pose to the Earth.[27][28]"

[27] http://lhc2008.web.cern.ch/LHC2008/documents/LSAG.pdf
[28] CERN Ask an Expert service
 
I think this is just another example of man trying to screw around with dangerous things they don't need to be screwing around with.  If there's even a remotely realistic chance this thing could destroy us all or do any significant damage to the planet, they have no right to put the rest of us in such danger for the simple sake of scientific advancement.
 
thelivingphoenix":2aoyfz3l said:
I think this is just another example of man trying to screw around with dangerous things they don't need to be screwing around with.  If there's even a remotely realistic chance this thing could destroy us all or do any significant damage to the planet, they have no right to put the rest of us in such danger for the simple sake of scientific advancement.

Even if the scientists don't care about the rest of the planet, I highly doubt that they want to die too, you know.

Nothing will happen.  The world has ended millions of times over and we're still here.

To create a black hole that would damage the earth even slightly you'd need a lot more matter and gravitational pull than they're using.
 
The LHC will not create a black hole, so it doesn't really matter, Nobody is saying that it will create a black hole, people are saying that it may create a micro black hole which would be completely harmless as it would decay due to Hawking radiation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_black_hole

Despite the similarity of the names the black hole and micro black hole are not really the same thing.

The black hole issue is rather stupid, even though there is the (very remote) possiblity of a micro black hole it's not going to happen since the LHC doesn't create enough energy for that.

However there are some legitimate safety concerns involving the LHC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadr ... y_concerns

Edit: Yeah, I was right:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/21/scien ... xprod=digg
 

Nachos

Sponsor

I didn't event read the hole page and I came up with sometihng:

If they are really capable of containing such an amount of energy, enegetic problems would be solved.
 
Great job iceplosion, you successfully copied the wikipages :D

Therefore:
The LHC will not create a black hole, so it doesn't really matter, Nobody is saying that it will create a black hole, people are saying that it may create a micro black hole which would be completely harmless as it would decay due to Hawking radiation
Did you even read what I, and other before me said? Thanks!

The black hole issue is rather stupid, even though there is the (very remote) possiblity of a micro black hole it's not going to happen since the LHC doesn't create enough energy for that.
It seems that the micro black holes will happen, according to wikipages at a rate on the order of one per second. . How remote is that.

Now something else:
Under this theory, the smaller the size of the micro black hole, the faster the evaporation rate, resulting in a sudden burst of particles as the micro black hole suddenly explodes.
I'm not saying that's dangerous, just saying that's cool
 
It seems that the micro black holes will happen, according to wikipages at a rate on the order of one per second. . How remote is that.

Not as a result of the LHC and you know that's what I was talking about.
 
This would suck. D:

MEYRIN, Switzerland (June 29) - The most powerful atom-smasher ever built could make some bizarre discoveries, such as invisible matter or extra dimensions in space, after it is switched on in August.

But some critics fear the Large Hadron Collider could exceed physicists' wildest conjectures: Will it spawn a black hole that could swallow Earth? Or spit out particles that could turn the planet into a hot dead clump?


Ridiculous, say scientists at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, known by its French initials CERN - some of whom have been working for a generation on the $5.8 billion collider, or LHC.

"Obviously, the world will not end when the LHC switches on," said project leader Lyn Evans.

David Francis, a physicist on the collider's huge ATLAS particle detector, smiled when asked whether he worried about black holes and hypothetical killer particles known as strangelets.

"If I thought that this was going to happen, I would be well away from here," he said.

The collider basically consists of a ring of supercooled magnets 17 miles in circumference attached to huge barrel-shaped detectors. The ring, which straddles the French and Swiss border, is buried 330 feet underground.

The machine, which has been called the largest scientific experiment in history, isn't expected to begin test runs until August, and ramping up to full power could take months. But once it is working, it is expected to produce some startling findings.

Scientists plan to hunt for signs of the invisible "dark matter" and "dark energy" that make up more than 96 percent of the universe, and hope to glimpse the elusive Higgs boson, a so-far undiscovered particle thought to give matter its mass.

The collider could find evidence of extra dimensions, a boon for superstring theory, which holds that quarks, the particles that make up atoms, are infinitesimal vibrating strings.

The theory could resolve many of physics' unanswered questions, but requires about 10 dimensions - far more than the three spatial dimensions our senses experience.

The safety of the collider, which will generate energies seven times higher than its most powerful rival, at Fermilab near Chicago, has been debated for years. The physicist Martin Rees has estimated the chance of an accelerator producing a global catastrophe at one in 50 million - long odds, to be sure, but about the same as winning some lotteries.

By contrast, a CERN team this month issued a report concluding that there is "no conceivable danger" of a cataclysmic event. The report essentially confirmed the findings of a 2003 CERN safety report, and a panel of five prominent scientists not affiliated with CERN, including one Nobel laureate, endorsed its conclusions.

Critics of the LHC filed a lawsuit in a Hawaiian court in March seeking to block its startup, alleging that there was "a significant risk that ... operation of the Collider may have unintended consequences which could ultimately result in the destruction of our planet."

One of the plaintiffs, Walter L. Wagner, a physicist and lawyer, said Wednesday CERN's safety report, released June 20, "has several major flaws," and his views on the risks of using the particle accelerator had not changed.

On Tuesday, U.S. Justice Department lawyers representing the Department of Energy and the National Science Foundation filed a motion to dismiss the case.

The two agencies have contributed $531 million to building the collider, and the NSF has agreed to pay $87 million of its annual operating costs. Hundreds of American scientists will participate in the research.

The lawyers called the plaintiffs' allegations "extraordinarily speculative," and said "there is no basis for any conceivable threat" from black holes or other objects the LHC might produce. A hearing on the motion is expected in late July or August.

In rebutting doomsday scenarios, CERN scientists point out that cosmic rays have been bombarding the earth, and triggering collisions similar to those planned for the collider, since the solar system formed 4.5 billion years ago.

And so far, Earth has survived.

"The LHC is only going to reproduce what nature does every second, what it has been doing for billions of years," said John Ellis, a British theoretical physicist at CERN.

Critics like Wagner have said the collisions caused by accelerators could be more hazardous than those of cosmic rays.

Both may produce micro black holes, subatomic versions of cosmic black holes - collapsed stars whose gravity fields are so powerful that they can suck in planets and other stars.

But micro black holes produced by cosmic ray collisions would likely be traveling so fast they would pass harmlessly through the earth.

Micro black holes produced by a collider, the skeptics theorize, would move more slowly and might be trapped inside the earth's gravitational field - and eventually threaten the planet.

Ellis said doomsayers assume that the collider will create micro black holes in the first place, which he called unlikely. And even if they appeared, he said, they would instantly evaporate, as predicted by the British physicist Stephen Hawking.

As for strangelets, CERN scientists point out that they have never been proven to exist. They said that even if these particles formed inside the Collider they would quickly break down.

When the LHC is finally at full power, two beams of protons will race around the huge ring 11,000 times a second in opposite directions. They will travel in two tubes about the width of fire hoses, speeding through a vacuum that is colder and emptier than outer space.

Their trajectory will be curved by supercooled magnets - to guide the beams around the rings and prevent the packets of protons from cutting through the surrounding magnets like a blowtorch.

The paths of these beams will cross, and a few of the protons in them will collide, at a series of cylindrical detectors along the ring. The two largest detectors are essentially huge digital cameras, each weighing thousands of tons, capable of taking millions of snapshots a second.

Each year the detectors will generate 15 petabytes of data, the equivalent of a stack of CDs 12 miles tall. The data will require a high speed global network of computers for analysis.

Wagner and others filed a lawsuit to halt operation of the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, or RHIC, at the Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York state in 1999. The courts dismissed the suit.

The leafy campus of CERN, a short drive from the shores of Lake Geneva, hardly seems like ground zero for doomsday. And locals don't seem overly concerned. Thousands attended an open house here this spring.

"There is a huge army of scientists who know what they are talking about and are sleeping quite soundly as far as concerns the LHC," said project leader Evans.

Source: http://news.aol.com/story/_a/critics-fe ... 5609990001
 
Welcome to last year.

It was meant to be turned on last November. Before that last March. Before that there were threads here about it. Since then there have been threads about it. There's an active thread somewhere here right now in fact.
 
I think we're going a little too far.  We're endangering ourselves to figure out how our universe works.  Also, we're spending billions of dollars on this stuff when it could be used for something more beneficial.
 
Guardian1239":nbukwvzf said:
I think we're going a little too far.  We're endangering ourselves to figure out how our universe works.  Also, we're spending billions of dollars on this stuff when it could be used for something more beneficial.
we'll never use the money we have to actually benefit ourselves, besides our need to not be confused.
 
Guardian1239":333k01ea said:
I think we're going a little too far.  We're endangering ourselves to figure out how our universe works.  Also, we're spending billions of dollars on this stuff when it could be used for something more beneficial.

Sure, we could use the money now to help thousands of people, or use the money for science that will help us save billions of people in the future. We're not endangering ourselves, we're not endangering the planet, scientists aren't poking the universe in the eye for the fuck of it. And throwing more money at a problem doesn't always help.

In fact it usually makes things worse.
 
I really don't see how this could save billions of people.  It doesn't appear to have any beneficial effects other than helping appease our curiosity.  Even if we discover a new dimension and create new technology around it, people will use it for destruction just like they've done with everything else.  Also, I'm not saying we should "throw" money at anything.  We should use it carefully to solve some of the current problems, like the energy crisis.  That money could go into research of alternative fuel sources, which would definitely benefit billions of people in the future.
 
Guardian1239":3gj5ra0z said:
I really don't see how this could save billions of people.  It doesn't appear to have any beneficial effects other than helping appease our curiosity.  Even if we discover a new dimension and create new technology around it, people will use it for destruction just like they've done with everything else.  Also, I'm not saying we should "throw" money at anything.  We should use it carefully to solve some of the current problems, like the energy crisis.  That money could go into research of alternative fuel sources, which would definitely benefit billions of people in the future.

Well, I suggest reading Fermi lab's essay on the importance of furthering science (with respect to experiments in particle acceleration) found here. (I've been there myself, and it's a cool place. If you get a chance to visit, live in Illinois, and love quantum physics you gotta check it out.)

Basically, though it might not appear to be any beneficial effects at first, scientists working in obscure fields create devices used in that branch of study. These devices in turn can be used for commercial applications. For instance, you we wouldn't be having this conversation if it weren't for research into quantum mechanics. We'd have no trains, computers, transistors or lasers.

And as for alternative fuel sources and such... Well, just think about the situation for a second...

The LHC is a giant magnet, super-cooled and covering a huge amount of land. Do you know what large magnets that cover huge amounts of land can be used for?

http://www.rmtbristolrail.org.uk/archiv ... _train.jpg[/img]

I bet you cost-efficient electronically controlled magnetic trains might do something to help the energy crisis. Cost-efficient and well run public transportation is a much better solution than just having alternative fuel sources.

I also don't like your immediate assessment that any new advances in technology could be used as a weapon. Yes, that is true, but it will always be the case. We won't all willingly hold hands around the world in peace. The world is in a constant arms race with itself, and we owe it to our own countrymen to further our technology, and stay ahead of the rest of the world in terms of weapon technology. YES, it sucks, YES things should be another way, but there will always be someone else making a sharper spear. The best we can do is make sure our spears are the sharpest, and keep them away from megalomaniacal rulers who just want to start wars for shits-n-giggles.
 
You may be correct on the advances this new technology will bring, but it will have to be a "Let's wait and see what happens," issue.  And, while I do agree that public transportation will help, there are quite a few people who aren't in a major city where this kind of technology could be implemented.  It would help in places like New York City, but where I'm from, public transportation is at a minimum as it is and these new technologies wouldn't help us in any way.  Also, where do they plan on putting the rail for that thing?  I guess they could put it in the air, which has been done in a few airports I've been to, but it doesn't seem practical...or safe in a city.
 
There aren't really enough people here to make it worthwhile, which is why we don't have it in the first place.  :\  We have buses, but we don't have transportation that could get you to work and back.  The nearest bus station is a fifteen minute drive.  It'd be cool if something was available, but it's pretty unlikely.
 

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