I Have a Problem

[___]

I've spent the last four hours watching shows on television about the ritualized self mutilation we like to call "plastic surgery" in this society. Men and Women who are by no sane or rational standard unattractive undergoing painful, invasive surgeries not because they have some kind of disease but because they don't compare favorably to the airbrushed pin-ups that the perverted fuckwads that passed for their role models jacked off to after they thought the kids were in bed. They change themselves from beautiful, natural looking human beings to plastic sex dolls with a pulse because their standards are so insanely high that they think they need to do it to get a date. We justify this shit by saying it helps their self-confidence, improves their self-esteem. Doing this somehow makes them feel more normal.

I'm living in a place right now, a relatively wealthy community where I can't walk down the street and see a single woman that's not weighed down with six pounds of cosmetics and silicon bought by their husbands, and these half assholes are still taking business trips to Taiwan every month to fuck underage sex slaves. The other half can't afford the plane tickets so they fuck their 19-year-old secretaries instead, imagining what it would be like to live the good life. Their teenage daughters run around in little clone packs comparing breast implants and nose jobs, discussing which celebrity haircut they'll all go and get this weekend and which talentless puppet pop idol they'd most like to fuck. The houses around here are almost all exactly the same - there are about six colors in use in the entire community of over twenty thousand people; there are strict rules about what you can plant, what color rocks you may landscape with, how many cars you can park in your driveway and what condition they have to be in. Everything is just perfect, and these people like it that way because it makes them feel secure, like they belong, like they're all alike.

I'm tired and running out of bile, so I need to pose a question to anyone who's interested: How the fuck did we get to this point? Do you think this shit is right, acceptable, natural or healthy, and why?

(Edit: Please note I posted this while sleep deprived and very angry, I won't tone it down but read on for more rational and less inflammatory discussion :D)

 

[Dopples]

Well, it depends on your point of view. If you look at any place in the country right now, you'll see we've become narcissistic bastards who don't even help someone being mugged or hurt because they think it isn't "cool", or follow the next trend because it's the "it" thing. We've basically stuck our heads up our own asses, and began believing what "professionals" tell us. Plastic surgery is proof of that.



You could also say that mainstream media caused this, but that's a narrow minded way of thought.

 

[___]

Oh I don't blame the media for anything. They just do what gets them ratings while not pissing off the FCC. We chose every piece of brain infecting intellectual feces they feed us and then beg for more. We wait for it with bells on. Stuff that makes people think too hard or confronts them with facts dies faster than an aborted fetus in the wastebasket of modern media. Thank God they give people like me online forums to bitch about it in though, or we might cause real trouble.

 

[Goodchild]

I've got one interesting idea.
Imaging what it will be like in the future when technology can change peoples appearance entirely (ie cybernetics/nanotechnology). What will be the value of having good looks then?

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

While I don't really agree with cosmetic surgery (other than fixing scars and things of that nature), there really is nothing wrong with it.

What's the difference between a tattoo and cosmetic plastic surgery, when the most common feeling by those doing it, is that it makes them feel better about themselves? Hell, body modification is usually considered to be piercings and tattoos and the like, but it's also breast implants and face lifts.

If it makes someone happy, and it's not hurting anyone else, then who's to say that it's wrong?

As for the 2nd part of that post, well that's what people naturally do. We tend to try to fit in the most with the clique we want to belong to the most - that will have us. We are influenced by cultures, modern or not, and our surroundings. What is common in those surroundings will reflect in us, our very behaviors, and will seem strange or alien to others. Those of us not so influenced by our local surroundings, but by those of others (internet group, social clique we hang out with in another neighborhood, books, foreign cultures and so on) will be the odd bunch out.
Me, I should be into Latino music, underground rap, and I should have a love of cars - but because I spent most of my social time elsewhere - these things have little if any interest to me, and annoy the crap out of me (especially the cars).

 

[rataime]

I tend to agree with sixtyandaquarter. I don't care about plastic surgery, but I think trying to change what nature has decided is rooted deep inside the human mind. I, for one, will love when we get to the point of cybernetics, breaking limits like there's no tomorrow.

 

[Roman Candle]

I for one have a bit of an issue where it comes to breat implants. Firstly, look at the whole size 0 freak out. Obviuosly, once you get there, you have no breasts left. Now, being skiny may look 'pretty' p), but that means nothing if men won't actually look at you with some sense of desire. So, do you not starve yourself? No - you become emaciated, but then you get implants. Solving all probems! If breast implants weren't so readily availlable, I really do believe that we would actually have a far less significant problem with hyper-weight loss.

Anyway, human desires aren't supposed to be pandered to. The more we are given, the more we want. The more plastic surgery enables people to pursue over-the-top ideals of beauty, (ie preteens with gigantic breasts), the more desire is engendered. Plastic surgery largely ignores beauty and goes straight for what appeals on a basic level. But the more we see it, the less special it becomes - we need more. If you think life is hard because you don't fit this particular body ideal, and so you have surgery, then you're making it that much worse for your daughters.

Rataime: Cybernetics - oh, goody, the ultimate widening of the gap between the haves and the have-nots. "I am better than you, I can jump fifty feet in the air,"

 

[arcthemonkey]

You've made a critically flawed generalization here - not all plastic surgery is even fair to call vain. Some plastic surgery can even be life saving, particularly facial abnormalities or scarring that can constrict airways, so on and so forth.

Your attitude also comes of as very hig-and-mighty. You shoot down concepts of self-esteem playing a part, but have seemingly no concept of just how much a part self-esteem plays in society - and has since probably the beginning of mankind. Women and men alike have always had a passive pressure to conform by an ideal, and while most pursue this ideal by wearing makeup, getting their hair done, or being snappy dressers, others seek permanant remedies.

It's true that some people have chronic feelings of inferiority and ugliness, but these are also serious disorders. The plastic surgery industry, though, does not cater exclusively to these people. Children with uncorrected cleft-lip are often teased mercilessly in school, but you imply that they are simply vain and conformist if they want to have it repaired? What about surgery to remove excessive skin after weightloss? What if someone has their face smashed in a car accident? Should they be asked to simply roll with the punches?

But right, you're only talking about people who get surgery on parts of themselves that were fine the way they were - but were they? Who decides what is ugly and what is pretty - who decides what is normally formed and what is malformed? What's the difference between nose-jobs for a girl whose nose was damaged in an accident, and a girl who thinks her nose is too big?

What I'm trying to say is that social conformity is a part of life. Tribes in africa stretch their necks to look beautiful, and American women get boob-jobs. I fail to see the novelty, and I fail to the see the difference.

 

[___]

@arcthemonkey: Thank you for pointing out the generalization, let me elaborate.

I'm not talking about plastic surgery for health reasons, and I'm a huge supporter of body customization. I love tattoo art, and every motherfucker who got implants to make himself look like freaky lizard boy or tiger man is a hero in my book. I'm talking here specifically about people who feel social pressure to conform to some perverse barbie/ken doll sexual ideal. The strata of society that typically promotes this stuff are the same people that look down their noses at tattoo art and look at anything beyond that level like circus freaks to be pitied and reviled, people who are clearly out of their minds for wanting to be not just a little different, but like, visibly, noticeably different in a way that jumps out at you and offends you on the street.

People who have serious physical deformities due to birth defects or accidents are also completely outside my question. Note that I don't consider small breasts, a big nose, or wrinkles serious deformities and I'm sorry but I won't ever accept an argument to the contrary.

Refer to Roman Candle, he's catching my point. If these people were sane and healthy and already thought there was nothing wrong with them, were satisfied with the way they looked but wanted to be just a little different for the fun of it or for the sake of distinguishing themselves, I would be totally cool with it. What I'm scared about is that many people are doing this not because they want to exactly, but because they think they have to to meet our society's warped ideas of beauty.

Also note I'm not upset with the people who do it - I don't like the victim mentality, everybody is ultimately responsible for their own actions, but they are relatively blameless. Moreso when they're pressured into it specifically by peers and loved ones rather than a general feeling of lack of self worth. I don't get upset with the doctors that do it even; I think they're butchers, but they're just following the money. If they refused to, someone else would. What I have a problem with is the parts of society that encourage it, that tell a woman she has to have D cups and a button nose and no signs that she's even half her age or she's not pretty, that tell a man if he doesn't have perfect hair and muscle tone that would shame a Greek statue he doesn't deserve companionship. Hell I don't even like cosmetic makeup.

I'm well acquainted with the science of beauty and why we find these perfect ideals attractive, what disturbs me is how high we've raised the bar. Is the fact that we can do this stuff the driving force behind why we want to? Or is there a deeper problem here that created the demand in the first place? My standard of beauty seems to include every healthy human being in all their variations. Yes that does exclude a few people who would like not to be, such as skeletal anorexics and the dangerously obese, but that doesn't say anything about their basic attributes when you set aside the abuse they've done to their bodies. And even at that I don't look at them any differently than I look at a person who's been ravaged by addiction; they're still potentially beautiful humans, they just need to start treating themselves better.

I guess it just scares me that where I see an attractive woman most guys see "room to improve." I can't comment much on the male gender, but my impressions are that men don't seem to have to conform to nearly as high standards. One can stray pretty far from the mark and be called handsome as a man. Still even that seems to be changing a lot.

I tend to agree with sixtyandaquarter. I don't care about plastic surgery, but I think trying to change what nature has decided is rooted deep inside the human mind. I, for one, will love when we get to the point of cybernetics, breaking limits like there's no tomorrow.

I'm totally down with cybernetics, I want eighteen robotic fingers, cyber-eyes that see infrared and ultraviolet, titanium bones and synthetic muscles, integrated wi-fi and a PC that's hooked into my brain and optical nerves. Bring it on. But not because I think there's something wrong with the way I am, just because it'd be insanely neat. Especially the eyes :D The idea scares my wife though, heh heh. If someone told me I needed any of that crap to be considered attractive I'd probably have a violent reaction and start shooting lasers out my cybernetic ass

I do share Roman Candle's concerns with the class gap that it would emphasize. One can dream that by the time we have the technology society will have matured beyond that problem but history tends to disagree.

If it makes someone happy, and it's not hurting anyone else, then who's to say that it's wrong?

I would agree, if that were the case, but watching these shows and talking to people who have undergone these surgeries raises serious questions in my mind about whether it's making them happy or satisfying their desires. And once again I don't take issue with the people that do it but rather the society that encourages it.

 

[Cruelty]

You completely missed the upsides of cosmetic surgery. Lots of people who have had it done, it actually does compliment them, and you wouldn't even know they DID have it done. Maybe some others are just really unattractive, and actually did need some kind of alteration to be attractive to others? Is it so bad to want to look nice?

And don't you think it's somewhat hypocritical to think that someone who alters himself to look like a cat/lizard (I know exactly the people who you're talking about) is a 'hero', yet people who just want to comply with society's generalisation of beauty are somehow bad people? It's all really the same. He wants to look like a cat, and she wants to look like 'insert model or whatever here'. Is it so hard to believe that other people actually HAVE opinions, and think that society's view of beauty (though you oppose it) may actually look really good to some people, and that said people may desire to look what they see as attractive?


Despite your free spirit outlook on 'everybody is beautiful the way they are', the truth is that some (hell, a lot of people) are not. I can count on one hand the amount of people I've seen in my neighborhood that are actually attractive. Sorry, that one really had nothing to do with the topic, but ohwell.

As for implants, anything more than a handful is too much.

Sorry if that all seemed kinda confrontational, but I'm almost always the counterpoint of discussions.

 

[Andy6000]

Nyphx (or however that name is spelled), your posts are far, far too long. Stop that. Be less verbose!

Cosmetic surgery is fine, though it does, as many have said, propogate the harmful barbie-esque image we have going on.

For instance: Cruelty, how god-awful ugly do you think people back in the day used to look? BACK IN THE DAY BEFORE MAKEUP AND BARBIE

Yeah they looked terrible (just look in a science textbook damnit), but did they really look terrible, or do they just not have huge breasts and fabulous asses, perhaps lacking that perfect tan and muscular abs. It's a disease on society, but not really one we can do much about other than stare at it and think 'this isn't how it should be'. I know a barbie image is wrong, but do I find people that don't conform attractive? No, which is kind of a bitch, but there it is.

Social programming is a bad thing. Bad for your soul.

 

[chuchan]

ok in this world basically, there are people. when i say this, i mean EVERYONE wants life to be different at first. But then their minds are poisoned by other people who want the same thing except they are acting the way they are because they want to fit in. This makes other people be this way so THOSE people lose their sense of wanting to change the world. Then there are people which we, the poisoned youth call "loners". The word "loner" basically means that the "loner" are people who are different than other people because they have a different idea of what the world should be like. Ad it realy makes me mad seeing those people being sad because they aren't part of a group. If you talk to most of the "cool" people, they will say that their life is crap and they wish their life were different. This world is driven by a single stereotype: the rich people who do everything what Nphyx said. The thing stopping us from changing the world is our fear of being rejected by those stereotypes that have taken over the world. And trust me, I know what it's like. I'm completely different from everyone else and called a loner. I don't think that people should be considered different because of the fact that what the majority of people's idea of the world is and our vision of what the world SHOULD be clash. So in teh end, the way our world has become now is because of human nature and the fear of being different/rejected.

 

[___]

And don't you think it's somewhat hypocritical to think that someone who alters himself to look like a cat/lizard (I know exactly the people who you're talking about) is a 'hero', yet people who just want to comply with society's generalisation of beauty are somehow bad people? It's all really the same. He wants to look like a cat, and she wants to look like 'insert model or whatever here'. Is it so hard to believe that other people actually HAVE opinions, and think that society's view of beauty (though you oppose it) may actually look really good to some people, and that said people may desire to look what they see as attractive?

Refer back to my above post, I did some editing afterward. In short I don't think people who get plastic surgery are bad people. I think we have a dysfunctional society.

Despite your free spirit outlook on 'everybody is beautiful the way they are', the truth is that some (hell, a lot of people) are not. I can count on one hand the amount of people I've seen in my neighborhood that are actually attractive. Sorry, that one really had nothing to do with the topic, but ohwell.

I believe you feel that way because of unrealistic standards you've been raised on, rather than because it's natural and right, which is really at the heart of the topic. I'm not saying it's your fault, I just think it's a social disease and it takes awareness to combat it.

@Andy6000: brevity is not my strong point. I'm working on it though, you should see what these posts look like before I trim them down :D

 

[Bunnie]

It's a tad ironic that I'm reading this now, three days prior to me seeing my plastic surgeon. Yup. 17 years old and I'm going under the knife for something that's nowhere near life-threatening. So what?

I've heard a lot of anti-plastic surgery rants, most of them from men. There's a lot of pressure from society these days on women, that they need to be thin and have enormous breasts to be beautiful. It's a little disgusting really, but honestly, I don't see it changing anytime soon. No one wants to be considered ugly. Not everyone can be born into what the norm is for "attractive" and if someone wants to look a little nicer to improve their self-esteem (and in most cases, their happiness) what's so wrong with that? Besides, if someone has the money (as well as the balls to deal with the post-surgery pain), more power to them, in my honest opinion. It's not about what you think about them, it's what the person thinks about themselves, and what they want. People don't have plastic surgery thinking "Oh shit, what about that 10% of people in America that don't agree with this!!!"

 

[Rye]

rather than because it's natural and right, which is really at the heart of the topic.

I don't believe that plastic surgery is natural, or I guess you could say right. But really, who cares about that? No one wants to walk down a street and have people gawk at them because they don't look like everyone else (in terms of what they cannot change, not in terms of what they wear). The only way to get rid of plastic surgery for vain reasons is to change society, and I really doubt that's going to happen anytime soon.

 

[___]

It's a tad ironic that I'm reading this now, three days prior to me seeing my plastic surgeon. Yup. 17 years old and I'm going under the knife for something that's nowhere near life-threatening. So what?

I've heard a lot of anti-plastic surgery rants, most of them from men. There's a lot of pressure from society these days on women, that they need to be thin and have enormous breasts to be beautiful. It's a little disgusting really, but honestly, I don't see it changing anytime soon. No one wants to be considered ugly. Not everyone can be born into what the norm is for "attractive" and if someone wants to look a little nicer to improve their self-esteem (and in most cases, their happiness) what's so wrong with that? Besides, if someone has the money (as well as the balls to deal with the post-surgery pain), more power to them, in my honest opinion. It's not about what you think about them, it's what the person thinks about themselves, and what they want. People don't have plastic surgery thinking "Oh shit, what about that 10% of people in America that don't agree with this!!!"

I'm not condemning you at all, you have every right to do it. As long as you've thought it over very carefully, considered the consequences, and are in a rational mindset about it rather than dealing with a body obsession or other disorder. Just remember there are many people that would like you better the way you are right now, and the only standard that matters is yours.

Like I said I'm concerned with the society that demands this, not the individuals who undergo it.

 

[Cruelty]

Am I the only one who lives in a neighborhood of ewoks?

"For instance: Cruelty, how god-awful ugly do you think people back in the day used to look? BACK IN THE DAY BEFORE MAKEUP AND BARBIE"

Doesn't matter, now does it? This is 2007, not 1802. We HAVE cosmetic makeup, and is DOES make people look better (usually).

 

[___]

@Cruelty: Haha, you might be Your definition of looking better is entirely subjective though. I ask my wife not to wear makeup because I think she looks better without. I really don't like that smooth, unnatural, plasticine look, it creeps me out. Point in fact, until makeup was invented everyone felt the way I do. Now I'm a minority. It's true that people have 'imperfections' in the skin and that makeup covers them; it's also true that makeup is a major cause of those imperfections by way of being a skin irritant. I actually like imperfection in general though, to me it provides context and emphases beauty even more.

In regard to things like acne and warts, it's a legitimate medical condition and there are working treatments, and makeup doesn't do much for them anyway.

 

[sixtyandaquarter]

Yay, more cents from the head of me... ahem:
To everyone saying plastic surgery isn't natural. Well, it's not. But neither are haircuts and shoes. Nor tooth paste. Nor soap. Nor Tylenol. I don't think we're going to have a discussion about how socks and other forms of footwear are bad... I know, but of a stretch, but it's really the same thing.

Cosmetic surgery is just a way to make someone feel better. It makes them, in some way, feel more attractive or normal. This is a fundamental aspect of behavior. We want to fit in - EVEN if it's fitting in with those people who don't fit in with the general population, or with no one we know but instead some counter-culture rockstar from across the sea. We want to look a certain way to attract the type of mate we want to attract. Animals do it all the time, if they had thumbs, brains, and the ability to cut open a human to modify their anatomy in some way - they would too.

Because it is natural. This is what we've always done. Corsets, wigs, makeup, heels, fashion, weight lose, weight gain, shaving, not-shaving, hair cuts, tattoos, ink, everything. All it is, is subjugating your natural look, to appear more appealing to those you hope to attract. Kind of like some animals who spread out on specific plants to get their scent when wanting to mate.

As for a problem that this is stemming, I don't see it. We all follow trends even though we wish we didn't, and are fully capable of making our own decisions. The media pushing thinness is fine, that's what people want apparently, and until that trend changes that's what people are getting. The problem isn't the image being pushed, or accepted - but the perceived opinion of the image. And that would imply to all images. I think horned ink covered "lizard men" is funny, not cool. But I don't care if they do it anymore than I care if Liz Tailor got a face lift.

 

[Andy6000]

Am I the only one who lives in a neighborhood of ewoks?

"For instance: Cruelty, how god-awful ugly do you think people back in the day used to look? BACK IN THE DAY BEFORE MAKEUP AND BARBIE"

Doesn't matter, now does it? This is 2007, not 1802. We HAVE cosmetic makeup, and is DOES make people look better (usually).

Cruelty you missed the point. I'm not saying the views are wrong, I'm saying that's just kind of how it is. Back in 1802, looking godawful by today's standards was pretty good for them! They'd probably see someone that looks good by our standards and go, "... Why are you orange? Do you have plastic over your face?"

Also, it's not wrong to make yourself feel better about yourself from a personal standpoint, but overall, I'd say it's wrong because you're contributing to the problem. But then again, that's like saying the fact that I water my garden is contributing to droughts on the other side of the planet. Not doing anything might make you feel a bit better in a 'global' context but you're not really doing anything so you may as well just go with it. (I know 'just go with it' is the worker bee outlook, but it's better than 'I want to change the world but I don't want to try hard' now isn't it?)