Girls in games (split)
- Thread starter Byron
- Start date
Perihelion
Sponsor
That comic is terrible. Listing exceptions to the rule, many of which are arguably bad anyway, does not make it not a rule.
coyotecraft
Sponsor
Idk. Can you name any weak female characters? Maybe a few Nintendo princesses at one time. If they're in a game they'll probably have a weapon/power at their disposal and/or motivation to do something on their own. Thats just how games work. Even Ashley in RE4, despite being helpless for most of the game, eventually has to help herself at certain points and that's when the player takes over.
I'm just trying to picture a game where you play as a female who doesn't do anything on their own. Like, you get other characters to do stuff for you rather than doing it yourself. That's my idea of a weak character anyways. Sass and a bad attitude doesn't make a female strong, imo. Sounding tough isn't strength. People always say mothers make strong characters. Yes, when they'll do anything to protect their young. No, when they're bossing their family around to do errands.
Sorry, starting to ramble.
I'm just trying to picture a game where you play as a female who doesn't do anything on their own. Like, you get other characters to do stuff for you rather than doing it yourself. That's my idea of a weak character anyways. Sass and a bad attitude doesn't make a female strong, imo. Sounding tough isn't strength. People always say mothers make strong characters. Yes, when they'll do anything to protect their young. No, when they're bossing their family around to do errands.
Sorry, starting to ramble.
Perihelion
Sponsor
I don't have time to delve into the issue of representations of female characters in games right now, but I agree that the problem is definitely a lot better than it used to be. But it's still far from perfect, and what I disliked about the comic is its pat and condescending dismissal of an actual problem. If you want to argue that good representation of female characters in games is no longer an issue, there are much better ways to make that point than listing a handful of decent female characters (some of which I have an issue with anyway) and then going HEH SUCK MY DICK BITCH :smug:
For a large part we've made progress generally and come to a point where in many games there are just characters, not stereotypes... but there is still a lot of crap out there, for both genders.
Wow, look at the size of those game
Guild Wars actually being a hilarious example in that even people who cover their heads for modesty:
Can't help but get their tits out.
Actually this might make an interesting topic for discussion so I'm going to split this.
Wow, look at the size of those game
Guild Wars actually being a hilarious example in that even people who cover their heads for modesty:
Can't help but get their tits out.
Actually this might make an interesting topic for discussion so I'm going to split this.
Perihelion
Sponsor
Yeah. Without getting too into it, games are on the whole much better about giving female characters agency than they used to be, but objectification is still a big issue. Even among the characters listed in that comic, about half of the ones I recognize pose slight to very troubling issues in that regard. Characters like Bayonetta may be strong, powerful, have agency in the story, whatever, but it sends a really bad message to tie that to sexuality. Like your value as a protagonist (and therefore as a person) is some function of your attractiveness. This tends to be very off-putting to women. Games have made a lot of progress in allowing women to be protagonists, but I would really like to see them have more female protagonists that aren't sexualized in some way. I think games are slowly getting better about that as well, but there's still a lot of work to be done.
Discworld was always very good at that, from the drawings on the covers, at least. Even (especially) women described in the books as beautiful were drawn to be a more, ahem, subjective beauty, which always made the books feel more about the stories rather than about the prettiness of the characters. Hell, how many games centre on princesses who are naturally beautiful no matter what, despite royalty being hereditary?
Okay, since this has become a thing and I was the one to post it, I feel obliged to make a few comments.
The examples there aren't all great, but those are all solid characters who have fairly solid stories and backgrounds and shit.
Now if we're going to pick out a few;
Firstly, we'll start with Bayonetta, for obvious reasons.
I actually love this game. It's very fun and the story is pretty cool but yes. The idea is that her hair is her clothes AND her method of attack. Therefore it falls that she's close to naked for some of the game.
Now if you guys know me, you know I don't really like women (sexually) and so playing a game about a woman who is naked a lot doesn't really seem appealing to me. But I got this game back when I was with my ex and we both loved it cause we didn't pay any mind to it.
Secondly, we'll go with Lightning.
I haven't played much of the FF13 series, but from what I could tell, lightning was a fairly strong character. I feel rather than looking at her as a "Woman" they... Y'know... looked and said she's a "Human"
Clearly the art directors didn't think the same but w/e
Now I feel like Curley Braces shouldn't really be there but in the game she is portrayed as a girl, despite being a robot. She's quite a cool character with a protective nature.
I've spent too long on this, but lets end lastly with samus.
Lets ignore "Other M" for a moment here because while it was a fun game, I feel it didn't portray her character well.
She's actually quite unique. As a character she's very strong and independent and I really don't feel she's over sexualized.
Okay, sure. Zero-suit samus is in a tight spandex suit, but it's appropriate for her story. You wouldn't go out into space in a shirt and jeans.
I personally don't understand why people assume that just because women are portrayed in a certain way in games that they have to do that in real life. I don't run around looking like freaking dante from DMC or shit like that. I understand that there is a fairly large over sexualization of women in games, but at the same time, I don't feel the guys in games are made ugly either.
In terms of the comic, the idea it's saying is "If you don't like it, try change it."
Sure you could respond with "But the games industry is tougher on women." Yeah, that's true. But at the same time, I feel a lot of these blocks are there cause you put them there. Just because it's tougher, doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
anyway.
/uneducated and sleepy rant.
The examples there aren't all great, but those are all solid characters who have fairly solid stories and backgrounds and shit.
Now if we're going to pick out a few;
Firstly, we'll start with Bayonetta, for obvious reasons.
I actually love this game. It's very fun and the story is pretty cool but yes. The idea is that her hair is her clothes AND her method of attack. Therefore it falls that she's close to naked for some of the game.
Now if you guys know me, you know I don't really like women (sexually) and so playing a game about a woman who is naked a lot doesn't really seem appealing to me. But I got this game back when I was with my ex and we both loved it cause we didn't pay any mind to it.
Secondly, we'll go with Lightning.
I haven't played much of the FF13 series, but from what I could tell, lightning was a fairly strong character. I feel rather than looking at her as a "Woman" they... Y'know... looked and said she's a "Human"
Clearly the art directors didn't think the same but w/e
Now I feel like Curley Braces shouldn't really be there but in the game she is portrayed as a girl, despite being a robot. She's quite a cool character with a protective nature.
I've spent too long on this, but lets end lastly with samus.
Lets ignore "Other M" for a moment here because while it was a fun game, I feel it didn't portray her character well.
She's actually quite unique. As a character she's very strong and independent and I really don't feel she's over sexualized.
Okay, sure. Zero-suit samus is in a tight spandex suit, but it's appropriate for her story. You wouldn't go out into space in a shirt and jeans.
I personally don't understand why people assume that just because women are portrayed in a certain way in games that they have to do that in real life. I don't run around looking like freaking dante from DMC or shit like that. I understand that there is a fairly large over sexualization of women in games, but at the same time, I don't feel the guys in games are made ugly either.
In terms of the comic, the idea it's saying is "If you don't like it, try change it."
Sure you could respond with "But the games industry is tougher on women." Yeah, that's true. But at the same time, I feel a lot of these blocks are there cause you put them there. Just because it's tougher, doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
anyway.
/uneducated and sleepy rant.
The way I see it, the gaming industry is still, unfortunately, seen a a man's thing... it seems more dominated by the male gender, and another sad thing, is a lot of these male gamers are horny teenagers that will buy anything with boobs, therefore it makes sense for these game developers to over sexualise women in their games, since at the end of the day, they know it attracts this crowd, and all they're trying to do is make money... so they just go with the flow.
I've got to be honest, games with an over sexualised female lead or even sidekick or whatever, if they feature predominantly in the game, it really turns me off the game since it's obvious the developer cares more about getting more sales from horny teenagers or fat neckbeards who actually believe these virtual women are their girlfriends (It's true guys, there are people like this!), than actually developing a proper female character...
Also it seems the Japanese are DEFINITELY the worst when it comes to things like this lol, how many anime games are there out there where the women (Or atleast ONE woman) don't have size ZZ Top (That's the biggest!) tits that are just hanging out and their costumes are made of dental floss or something similar?
I've got to be honest, games with an over sexualised female lead or even sidekick or whatever, if they feature predominantly in the game, it really turns me off the game since it's obvious the developer cares more about getting more sales from horny teenagers or fat neckbeards who actually believe these virtual women are their girlfriends (It's true guys, there are people like this!), than actually developing a proper female character...
Also it seems the Japanese are DEFINITELY the worst when it comes to things like this lol, how many anime games are there out there where the women (Or atleast ONE woman) don't have size ZZ Top (That's the biggest!) tits that are just hanging out and their costumes are made of dental floss or something similar?
I've been told by so many people that I should play Bayonetta since the gameplay and story are over the top and really fun... but I can't justify ever buying the game solely based on her appearance, basically you're playing as a slut (How ironic, eh? Jason doesn't want to play with a slut... oh dear!), who, as Potion has said, is pretty much naked for half the game due to her hair being her costume and her means of attacking at the same time...
It's my opinion that the comic entirely missed the point and it's attitude is part of the problem.
Games have been around for ages, naming the exceptions isn't going to change that 99% of games exclusively feature men in a dominant role for marketting reasons.
It is as dumb as saying "women have an equal chance in achieving significant political roles; look at Margaret Thatcher"
Edit; and that final "don't like it then change it" is an upsetting snapshot on the history of achieving equal rights, people have to fight to make changes they want, that's screwed up, there are already barriers in education for getting people into the games industry, women also have the social stigma of games not being for them as it's boys only, there isn't enough power on the side of women to make the change, there is a lot that is keeping the games industry a boys world.
Mobile games is the only place I can think of where majority of players are women despite there being an equal barrier of entry for the consumer, girls play games but games themselves have been developed within a sexist world.
Games have been around for ages, naming the exceptions isn't going to change that 99% of games exclusively feature men in a dominant role for marketting reasons.
It is as dumb as saying "women have an equal chance in achieving significant political roles; look at Margaret Thatcher"
Edit; and that final "don't like it then change it" is an upsetting snapshot on the history of achieving equal rights, people have to fight to make changes they want, that's screwed up, there are already barriers in education for getting people into the games industry, women also have the social stigma of games not being for them as it's boys only, there isn't enough power on the side of women to make the change, there is a lot that is keeping the games industry a boys world.
Mobile games is the only place I can think of where majority of players are women despite there being an equal barrier of entry for the consumer, girls play games but games themselves have been developed within a sexist world.
coyotecraft
Sponsor
[I actually have a lot to say about this but I don't think I can count on the topic lasting long enough to make small posts. And I've written at least two post prior to this that I never posted. I've spent a long time refining my thoughts. Like, haven't moved for 6 hours and I'm a little sleep drunk, but I tried to be sensitive and stayed on topic ]
tl;dr: Women want men to look at women the way women look at men. And men want women to look at men the way men look at women. Or I could simply say that male and female audiences are attracted to different things.
A difference of the sexes or just perspective.
Roles. Women romanticize roles too much. A strong female character means nothing if they don't have a role to play.
Look at women's romance novels and calender men. When is a male just a male? They aren't. They're cowboys and firefighters. They all play a role. As the saying goes, Women love a man in uniform. The social expectation for women to be beautiful is the gender equivalent that men are expected to a "somebody".
After watching feminist frequency I can't deny there are more male characters then females in games. But their argument was that these one-dimensional male characters were individuals because they wore outfits and costumes and women were not because they only wore pink. Idk how to write this idea out:
It's one way of thinking; that wearing an outfit makes you something more. But it can also make you less of a person; you're belittled to a role. Personally, I think it's feminist thinking that decided a woman without a role was a role itself. And if things had be different with a variety of female roles and just one man; they'd still be offended. Being seen as complex and not "equally" simplified.
Putting women in more shoes (hows that for a stereotype) is just one direction you can go. The other way would be to liberate men from roles. Just plain Mario. Not a plumber or a doctor or anything else. He doesn't need a job to get a girl. And the girl doesn't need to be a princess. Just ordinary people like real life. But then it wouldn't be romantic.
Why does a man have to be strong and reliable? Isn't that as much of a stereotype as a female victim? It sounds like it would be good thing. Not like a female victim used to build up a male character. But from another perspective it's a man fulfilling the needs of a women.
Interestingly, sales for romance novels went up when the economy went down. Haha
______________________
I don't think y'all see the irony in the comic. It's a girl wishing for more strong female characters. In other words, females that aren't victims needing to be saved by a man. Then all these guys metaphorically come to her rescue. Listing a ton of examples and even point out a way she could help herself but in the end she would rather play a victim.
______________________
Where some only see cleavage I see confidence. People might call it objectifying. But I call it charisma. Personality speaks. Their poses show character. But marketing a game like Bayonetta to women who are concerned about roles and not appearances would be tricky.
They'd have to market Bayonetta with the little girl. without spoiling who the girl is. Or maybe just her sealed coffin. Or put a lot of emphasis on her hair since, if you didn't know, her hair is magically weaved to make up her outfit and she weaves it into other spells during combat. Come on, thats cool.
If they tried to market Bayonetta as a mysterious women, it would have just been misleading. The questions raised in game's story would be overpowered by her..um..presence. You're just watching to see what over the top thing she'd do next and it wouldn't matter what direction the story went.
You could call it gender flip of DMC with angels instead of demons. But I think DMC took itself a little more seriously. Dante did some over the top stunts, but Bayonetta did it on a completely different scale which is the real selling point of the game.
tl;dr: Women want men to look at women the way women look at men. And men want women to look at men the way men look at women. Or I could simply say that male and female audiences are attracted to different things.
A difference of the sexes or just perspective.
Roles. Women romanticize roles too much. A strong female character means nothing if they don't have a role to play.
Look at women's romance novels and calender men. When is a male just a male? They aren't. They're cowboys and firefighters. They all play a role. As the saying goes, Women love a man in uniform. The social expectation for women to be beautiful is the gender equivalent that men are expected to a "somebody".
After watching feminist frequency I can't deny there are more male characters then females in games. But their argument was that these one-dimensional male characters were individuals because they wore outfits and costumes and women were not because they only wore pink. Idk how to write this idea out:
It's one way of thinking; that wearing an outfit makes you something more. But it can also make you less of a person; you're belittled to a role. Personally, I think it's feminist thinking that decided a woman without a role was a role itself. And if things had be different with a variety of female roles and just one man; they'd still be offended. Being seen as complex and not "equally" simplified.
Putting women in more shoes (hows that for a stereotype) is just one direction you can go. The other way would be to liberate men from roles. Just plain Mario. Not a plumber or a doctor or anything else. He doesn't need a job to get a girl. And the girl doesn't need to be a princess. Just ordinary people like real life. But then it wouldn't be romantic.
Why does a man have to be strong and reliable? Isn't that as much of a stereotype as a female victim? It sounds like it would be good thing. Not like a female victim used to build up a male character. But from another perspective it's a man fulfilling the needs of a women.
Interestingly, sales for romance novels went up when the economy went down. Haha
______________________
I don't think y'all see the irony in the comic. It's a girl wishing for more strong female characters. In other words, females that aren't victims needing to be saved by a man. Then all these guys metaphorically come to her rescue. Listing a ton of examples and even point out a way she could help herself but in the end she would rather play a victim.
______________________
Where some only see cleavage I see confidence. People might call it objectifying. But I call it charisma. Personality speaks. Their poses show character. But marketing a game like Bayonetta to women who are concerned about roles and not appearances would be tricky.
They'd have to market Bayonetta with the little girl. without spoiling who the girl is. Or maybe just her sealed coffin. Or put a lot of emphasis on her hair since, if you didn't know, her hair is magically weaved to make up her outfit and she weaves it into other spells during combat. Come on, thats cool.
If they tried to market Bayonetta as a mysterious women, it would have just been misleading. The questions raised in game's story would be overpowered by her..um..presence. You're just watching to see what over the top thing she'd do next and it wouldn't matter what direction the story went.
You could call it gender flip of DMC with angels instead of demons. But I think DMC took itself a little more seriously. Dante did some over the top stunts, but Bayonetta did it on a completely different scale which is the real selling point of the game.
My whole thing is when you look similar to this:
and play games with characters that look and act like this:
who display this kind of confidence, resourcefulness, dependability, and responsibility:
have girls lining up for them:
and are ballsy to the point of insanity:
Yet said person posts stuff like this:
It makes me wonder how that's any different (and somehow "better") than this:
*The above is not a statement about the community's view of women who play games (which I feel is only perpetuated by trolls and not really as serious since trolls will make fun of your dead father to try and anger you), but the way that men are portrayed in games and how men too are affected by stereotypes.
and play games with characters that look and act like this:
who display this kind of confidence, resourcefulness, dependability, and responsibility:
have girls lining up for them:
and are ballsy to the point of insanity:
Yet said person posts stuff like this:
It makes me wonder how that's any different (and somehow "better") than this:
*The above is not a statement about the community's view of women who play games (which I feel is only perpetuated by trolls and not really as serious since trolls will make fun of your dead father to try and anger you), but the way that men are portrayed in games and how men too are affected by stereotypes.
Absolutely disgusting and I'm just so ashamed that I'm a man and that most men in the world are just like this entitled ass.Sauk":1uwypxt1 said:
'Hi I'm adding you as a friend because you're a girl, I'm not creepy, but I'd be in the kitchen for our future relationship'
'Dear "Females" (because you are females in the world of sex, you are not women, you are a female mating partner)
I am entitled to you because I do everything correct, my video games tell me I should pretend to be your friend, pretend to listen to your non-sense, pretend to have sympathy, and when you tell me you have no interest because your made-up non existent life problems do not exist you should look at yourself and say "shit, I should find an entitled good-guy who deserves my body and affection because what I want and think is part of a category of being a female and not a human".
To make this absolutely creepy and to secure my dickish nature, I will sign this as; Sincerly, Good Guy
Ps. I am going to act like a dick to women now because I'm tired of pretending to be a good human being and that not giving me the girl I am obviously entitled to, if you do not want to be in my trophy cabinet I will act like an asshole and put you in my trophy cabinet'
And most men defend this opinion. That's fucked up and games keep this opinion alive. Princess Peach being the prize is not a good thing, Samus Aran does not address this, she is one of those women who "we should respect her female power because she is a female and we should respect females because they have so many woes".
I want all of this to be challenged and it is yet to happen. I'd like to see a game where the main character is a woman who acts like a total bitch and gets what she wants through aggression and manipulation and still have the player connect with and like her, this is why I want a female lead character in a GTA game, it's the perfect setting for challenging this.
EDIT: now that I'm a bit more alert..
Umm.. what? Not to delve into this point too hard, however, the actions of one person (or of people of a particular demographic of person) who shares only 1 thing in common with you should never make you ashamed to be something. The idea that this one person is a representation of all things male and masculine and you're somehow an anomaly is wrong. And here's why:
No complaints here, though this could be blamed on the fact that maybe he, as a person, doesn't know how to interact with people (obviously). He could be an entitled prick, but he could also just be a socially awkward virgin who had no real male figure in his life to show him what being a man is. Either way, there's more than just male chauvinism at work.
Um.. no? I don't know what men you've spoken to, but I rarely if ever see people defend this opinion outside of the internet.. which is populated by social rejects. Sure, guys say things like "treat em mean to keep em keen", but all that means is to not prioritize a woman when attempting to seduce one and to show some balls when faced with a shit test. I'd go off on a limb and say that most women find it unattractive when a man puts their pursuits before his own, especially when they're first interacting (ever hear a woman swooning over "driven" men? That's what they mean; their man pays attention to her but doesn't let anything get in his way of achieving what he wants). The only thing is when these socially awkward people read this advice they go overboard with it and think that the best way to attract a lady is to treat them like absolute shit instead of just maybe not responding to her messages every once in awhile and keeping yourself busy which, for some reason, gives the image of mysteriousness and a goal drive attitude.
Take it from me, a person who most would consider a misogynistic asshole, none of my friends (or myself) condone that kind of behaviour and not many men outside of the internet and various websites that are known for bronies actually support this kind of behaviour, which is why most people call them "social retards".
Which brings me to my own theory of hyper sexual female characters: It's what social anxiety virgins want. Look at fan service in anime and the invention of hentai, or fan service in certain videogames, then look at the fans of them. Bronies exist and "marry" their favourite characters/masturbate to them. People masturbate to Hentai all the time or their favourite anime characters (see: ZoneTAN). Hell, in Japan there's an epidemic(?) of young men refusing to sleep with women and would rather a virtual wife. These kinds of people I feel have more of an impact on the way female characters are illustrated than what people give credit to, and tackling the issues of why these kids are so introverted and self-isolating + socially awkward would be one way of changing the way women are illustrated in video games.
I know that when I play games I'm not drooling over a girl's tits since, y'know, it's a fucking CGI render, and I feel that men who don't fall under the category of basement-dwelling super fan don't either.
That's just my theory though, and I could very well be wrong. I've just noticed that the personalities of super fans is something that is very over-looked in conversations pertaining to this.
Xilef":e16nzlsp said:
Umm.. what? Not to delve into this point too hard, however, the actions of one person (or of people of a particular demographic of person) who shares only 1 thing in common with you should never make you ashamed to be something. The idea that this one person is a representation of all things male and masculine and you're somehow an anomaly is wrong. And here's why:
Not arguing with the creepiness, however, we don't know who this person is or what his personality is like. All we know is that he doesn't do well with women, and comes off far too strong and awkward. Could this be his fault? Sure, but it could also be his upbringing and events in his life that sparked a fear of approaching women (leading to social retardation).Xilef":e16nzlsp said:
Xilef":e16nzlsp said:
No complaints here, though this could be blamed on the fact that maybe he, as a person, doesn't know how to interact with people (obviously). He could be an entitled prick, but he could also just be a socially awkward virgin who had no real male figure in his life to show him what being a man is. Either way, there's more than just male chauvinism at work.
Xilef":e16nzlsp said:
Um.. no? I don't know what men you've spoken to, but I rarely if ever see people defend this opinion outside of the internet.. which is populated by social rejects. Sure, guys say things like "treat em mean to keep em keen", but all that means is to not prioritize a woman when attempting to seduce one and to show some balls when faced with a shit test. I'd go off on a limb and say that most women find it unattractive when a man puts their pursuits before his own, especially when they're first interacting (ever hear a woman swooning over "driven" men? That's what they mean; their man pays attention to her but doesn't let anything get in his way of achieving what he wants). The only thing is when these socially awkward people read this advice they go overboard with it and think that the best way to attract a lady is to treat them like absolute shit instead of just maybe not responding to her messages every once in awhile and keeping yourself busy which, for some reason, gives the image of mysteriousness and a goal drive attitude.
Take it from me, a person who most would consider a misogynistic asshole, none of my friends (or myself) condone that kind of behaviour and not many men outside of the internet and various websites that are known for bronies actually support this kind of behaviour, which is why most people call them "social retards".
Which brings me to my own theory of hyper sexual female characters: It's what social anxiety virgins want. Look at fan service in anime and the invention of hentai, or fan service in certain videogames, then look at the fans of them. Bronies exist and "marry" their favourite characters/masturbate to them. People masturbate to Hentai all the time or their favourite anime characters (see: ZoneTAN). Hell, in Japan there's an epidemic(?) of young men refusing to sleep with women and would rather a virtual wife. These kinds of people I feel have more of an impact on the way female characters are illustrated than what people give credit to, and tackling the issues of why these kids are so introverted and self-isolating + socially awkward would be one way of changing the way women are illustrated in video games.
I know that when I play games I'm not drooling over a girl's tits since, y'know, it's a fucking CGI render, and I feel that men who don't fall under the category of basement-dwelling super fan don't either.
That's just my theory though, and I could very well be wrong. I've just noticed that the personalities of super fans is something that is very over-looked in conversations pertaining to this.