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China...evil or victim?

Only a few decades ago, China was a country closed to the world, confined within itself. While other countries such as England industrialized, modernized itself, China remained traditional. Nobody really knew what was China, really, except that they had "pointy hats". Then, the outside pressure became too much and came Mao Zedong, Chairman of the Communist Party of China, who decided : "Enough is enough, we shall make China as strong as the rest". By that time China had allready about a century of catching up to do.

I, myself, did not really though about China so much and the socio-economic side (even though I've been there before), before somewhere in March, the Tibetian's revolt in Lhasa. Honestly, I didn't care so much, except when I realized this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas. All those policemen we saw on the television was in fact nepaleese. The difference in the uniform was quite obvious, they wear cloudy-blue uniforms and the chineese has green, more militaristic uniforms.

Does that make China innocent? No! It is true that the human rights are not always respected, and tons of other things.

Is it bad? Now we hit a good question...

Like I said, China, while being over 5000 years old, is about one century late on the western countries. It is an example of how communist is evil, of polluters, and such. That is the image the media gives to us. Is it the true image?

Let's go back in history. You all know Japan, with it's Animes, Gadgets and Toyota cars. It's a modern country. That didn't happen by magic, though. It followed the example of the west and now, it's on the same level as them. I wasn't born when it hapenned, but according to (older) people I know, the western media blamed them as much as they blame China. The polluters, the bad example, etc. Not China though, they weren't scary yet. But now, no one would dare mess with China on the political level, so they use propaganda, do they not? And who's next? India, second fastest growing country. So....

1. Sure, China is a big polluter. They are over one billion people. That is about...18% of the population. They produce 18% of total emission. Not great, but they do have industries and technologies that were used 150 years ago. Not all modern. USA? 22% of total pollution, yet, they are merely 5% of the populatipn with 300 million. Europeen Union? 500 million (~8%), with 14.7% of emissions. Canada emits only 2,3%, but has merely ~34 million people.

That doesn't make China innocent, but isn't the western media giving them all the blame?

2. China...um...omits certain information in the news. Information that makes the governement look bad. That's not good at all.

Hell, with 1 billion people, you can't have everybody out of the slums by tomorrow, but all I see in the media is the slums. When it's nice building, it's nowhere near emphazised. I'm sorry, the west, but China has nicer appartements then here. Much more modern, and for the average person. Sure, the doctor has a little bigger condo (note that doctor isn't paid as much in China), but the average carpenter still has a more modern building then here. I'm not saying they have 60k Ft2 of yard, but in terms of materials of construction and such...better (I can testify that)

Yet 7 years ago, a house of the same value was total shit, as far as I remember. Only 7 years. Is the media still giving us information that is 7 years old, or are they doing it on purpose?

Talking about ommission, why are they showing us images of nepal (which is NOT located in Lhasa)? Perhaps it's because in Lhasha, the monks were NOT beaten by bamboo sticks?

Then, the social problems as the girls who get left out because families like boys better. Guess what? They didn't explain why. Just that China is a bunch of freaks. The thing is, in some rural areas, there is no pension for 70 years old. You need a SON to work for you, because a DAUGHTER is going to get married and leave home? Guess what? If we had contraception back in 1400 + only one child/family, I'm sure there would be such problems too, in europe, before america would even be discovered.

3. Olympics. More recent.

Oh no, a fake singer! Would anyone have noticed the fake singer if the maker of the ceremony wouldn't have said it? What if on western shows, they do it all the time but they just don't tell us? Ever though of that? Of course not, you wouldn't have noticed. It's just that the Chineese haven't learned how to be subtle yet.

This was not the first time the Olympics opening ceremonies had involved lip-synching, one such occasion was during the 2006 Winter Olympic opening ceremony in Turin, Italian tenor Luciano Pavarotti mimed his own performance because Leone Magiera, the maestro who conducted the aria, felt the cold weather made it difficult for Pavarotti to perform live

One part of the fireworks show which displayed the 29 footprints that wandered into the Bird’s Nest from outside the stadium, was simulated by computer animation to portray the real fireworks due to the hazy smog conditions and safety concerns with flying a helicopter near the display.[63][64][65] It is noted however that the real 29 footprints firework was indeed launched at the Olympic venue.

Yeah, I'm sure China would have taken the risk to shoot down an helicopter. Sure. Well, who cares anyway, with 29,000 fireworks what if some of them are fake? What about the actual show itself, that beats the hell out of alot of other shows we've seen (even if the western camera had wrong angles and only showed 50%)? And don't tell me that we, here in North America, never fakes anything? We never use special effects, not at allllllllllll.

----

I could go on for years of such examples, but you get the point. The media lies. It only shows the bad side, not the good side. And the bad side is actually things that have hapenned or would have hapenned, here, before we became a modern society. So tell me now, what do you think?

(I'm not sure the extend of how true my own arguments are, but that is why I post here, of course. To seek further the truth.)
 
Someone wants us to have a bad image of China, an evil image to push the blame onto. Don't ask me how their evil, all I see is a country that is a few decades late (and won't be late for long).
 

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I think the progress China has made in the past couple decades is really admirable. They still practice a wide variety of things that violate human rights on a basic level, mostly due to the way a single-party system controls a country through control of the media and control of dissent. These things are still reprehensible, and there's no equivocating them, but I could say the same thing about torture in Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib (really, what the fuck is that). The US in no position to be pointing fingers at China regarding human rights. This is just what happens when a government gets out of control and stops listening to the people it's supposed to represent.

I feel however that these things will stop happening as China evolves. China has made the smart choice to transition slowly and in a controlled fashion to modern capitalist democracy, rather than jumping in all at once and dealing with the ensuing disaster that has caused for other post-communist countries like Russia. Communism is really a joke in China, and the communist party is dissolving. More people rising into the middle class and improving their education will naturally create pressure for social reform. China is loosening up enough that it's now possible to challenge the state in courts, and there are lawyers who are willing to do this without fear of reprisal. I expect within 20-30 years China will be a real democracy and the communist party will have splintered into several competing political parties.

As long as it looks like they're making real concrete progress we have to let China do things their way and learn their own lessons.
 
They won't allow even a low level degree autonomy to a region whose leader has said he's perfectly happy to answer to China and pay taxes etc, just so long as China respects their right to their cultural heritage and allows them control over their internal affairs and have been caught conducting false flag operations in the region.

I've got a couple of images somewhere, taken by freelance Chinese journalists (a very risky business) which show Chinese troops changing into the uniforms of Nepalese soldiers and Tibetan monks. Basically the entire thing was a case of Agents Provocateur. Fortunately, if you're paying attention to the right sources, it's easy to spot: they're not as good as it as we are.

They're certainly not a victim.
 
Let's go back in history. You all know Japan, with it's Animes, Gadgets and Toyota cars. It's a modern country. That didn't happen by magic, though. It followed the example of the west and now, it's on the same level as them. I wasn't born when it hapenned, but according to (older) people I know, the western media blamed them as much as they blame China. The polluters, the bad example, etc. Not China though, they weren't scary yet. But now, no one would dare mess with China on the political level, so they use propaganda, do they not? And who's next? India, second fastest growing country. So....

So why do some Japanese hate not just the American occupation but also this western influence in their economy? Why do they claim that they lost what was dearest to them?

About China I may say that the only good thing I heard of was that they were building a dam, a bridge... and have destroyed a lot of pirate copies of software some while ago... But the last thing may not be anything but a booby trap...
 

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shadowball":gxvdtqj5 said:
About China I may say that the only good thing I heard of was that they were building a dam, a bridge... and have destroyed a lot of pirate copies of software some while ago... But the last thing may not be anything but a booby trap...
The dam on the yellow river is a horrible ecological disaster. What is the second statement supposed to mean?
 
shadowball":2is4fzxw said:
So why do some Japanese hate not just the American occupation but also this western influence in their economy? Why do they claim that they lost what was dearest to them?

Because they are really old Japanese who believed that popping pregnant chinese women's bellies was a national pasttime and they yearn for the era when all non-japanese were considered niggers.
 
Mr. N":iyx3u7k4 said:
Dissonance":iyx3u7k4 said:
...they yearn for the era when all non-japanese were considered niggers.
Wait when did that stop?

When the current generation decided that all things western were AWESOME and started dressing completely western and getting operations to de-asian their eyes.
 
Dissonance":2k9gzplg said:
Mr. N":2k9gzplg said:
Dissonance":2k9gzplg said:
...they yearn for the era when all non-japanese were considered niggers.
Wait when did that stop?

When the current generation decided that all things western were AWESOME and started dressing completely western and getting operations to de-asian their eyes.

So basically the opposite of what happens here?
 
Incognitus":1am8t9zb said:
Dissonance":1am8t9zb said:
Mr. N":1am8t9zb said:
Dissonance":1am8t9zb said:
...they yearn for the era when all non-japanese were considered niggers.
Wait when did that stop?

When the current generation decided that all things western were AWESOME and started dressing completely western and getting operations to de-asian their eyes.

So basically the opposite of what happens here?

Yeah pretty much.  That's globalization for you.

"man my culture is boring but those guys look exotic and cool let's dress and look like them!"

We're currently swapping societies :P
 
Yup. Here we call Sudoku...Sudoku and they call it "number-placing". One of many example.

I've got a couple of images somewhere, taken by freelance Chinese journalists (a very risky business) which show Chinese troops changing into the uniforms of Nepalese soldiers and Tibetan monks. Basically the entire thing was a case of Agents Provocateur. Fortunately, if you're paying attention to the right sources, it's easy to spot: they're not as good as it as we are.

I knew someone would pop up something like that eventually. Then someone else is going to highlight parts in the video that prove it was fabricated in america, then someone will say that's false, etc. So far, if you look in youtube, it's just escalation of proofs. (Oh, and real nepaleese have darker skin, by the way.)
 
Um... Not a video. Pictures. They were taking by Chinese dissidents, passed to Amnesty International, who then published them.

The Chinese use Agents Provocateur all the time: You're dissmissing this on the grounds that people argue about it on Youtube? :|
 
No, I believe they are true, but nowdays it's hard to know what is true since if it looks real you believe it.

By youtube I refer to video such as this

whose fact looks real enough, but some of them as dismissed here

who are also believable, but when you read the comments, they are yet again argued over...

Well, I'm not an historian, so I have to stick to what people tell me. But while we are not in Big Brother 1984, it's quite possible that some elements of history have been fabricated and "brainwashed" into the chineese people. Has Tibet been part of China for over 800 years or are the maps fabricated? I think their real maps, but it's hard to tell. The thing is, NOBODY are historians so they all just listen to the media and take it for granted. Or propaganda. China does use propaganda alot, naturally. So they know what the governement thaught them. Same for us (some knows more accurate facts, like me, but even then I'm not sure how much of all I know is true).
 
China have a weak administrative claim to the region of Tibet but naturally ownership of the land, under all UN conventions, belongs to the people have historically lived there. The Tibetans have their own culture and own identity.

The Chinese aren't as good as propaganda as we are - scrutinise it closely and you'll find the cracks open up very quickly.
 
Incognitus":23902jig said:
China have a weak administrative claim to the region of Tibet but naturally ownership of the land, under all UN conventions, belongs to the people have historically lived there. The Tibetans have their own culture and own identity.

lol native americans/canadians/australians

UN conventions mean jack shit in reality.  Of course Americans actually believe that a couple of hundred years constitutes as real history :3
 
The worst America is doing right now is locking up innocent people in Guantanamo Bay, torturing them and humiliating them.

China takes people it doesn't like, puts them in concentration camps and then cuts out their organs to sell on the black market before they kill them in giant furnaces.

No country's perfect, practically every country has done/is doing/will do some horrible crime, but c'mon... WTF CHINA?! Is China evil? No. Is China's government evil? FUCK YES!!

Is the Dalai Llama bullshit? ... maybe /shrug
 

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