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Be nice to Terror?

On the news I've read;

Bush - "We do not torture terrorists in CIA prisons, we have other methods.", ok he is obviously lying, so what?

Democrats - "We don't like what Bush is doing, we think terrorists should be treated under the same laws of americans." wtf.

Whats with the Terrorist sympathy? As far as I'm concerned they are the enemy of the "world". One terrorist group you all know, Al Quida, even attacks other muslim countries, and not only "non believers".
Same can be said for Democrat media(talk shows, ect.).

I say let them torture terrorists to get information from them. Do you really care what happens to terrorist, rather then hundereds of people, or even you?

You oppinion on this matter?
 
Considering how they happen to grab people 'suspected' of being terrorists... I'd have to say lay off the torture. It happens to be illegal, and given the torture is bad enough, you just get false confessions.
 
I was just thinking on the same thing, but the chances of that are not very likely, since it is the CIA but mistakes do happen during war.

I rushed to comment on it. I was just pissed when I heard and didn't think. I will have to learn more on their methods, before I can comment any further. :/
 
our world is so screwed up when we think more about the safety of the criminal then the saftey of the victims.

if your in a CIA prison as a SUSPECTED terrorist then chances are you DID something or know someone who did something bad...

And then a quote comes to mind by Dubya: We will make no distinction between those who harbor terrorist and those who are terrorists.

using that...no one in a CIA prison is innocent...

I say we should tourture them...no point in being nice to something that has information that may protect people.
 
:P theres a bit more to the war than meets they eye. Taking a step back and CONSIDERING maybe they're not insane evil people that Bush makes them out to be helps.

Ironiclly, "yesterdays ally is todays enemy" fits al-quida and the taliban perfectly. Both were HEAVILY funded by the US for their own purposes. A large amount of the weapons, money, and intial support these groups got when they first started out were from the US.

As for torture....no. It will often create false confessions, as well as the fact that NOT EVERYONE THEY DETAIN IS A TERRORIST.
 
No, no, no! Torturing anyone is simply not a viable option. To be perfectly honest, I'm disturbed by how many people have no problem with this.

First of all, let's just pretend that torture isn't horrible and completely immoral. We'll consider this a non-factor for this point. America isn't the moral authority in the world, and neither is any other single sovereignty. You can't just decide who's "good" and who's "unworthy" - who gets treated fairly and who is treated as an inferior being. Being an enemy does not equate with being evil, and I worry that American society seems to completely disregard this basic truth.

Now, even if America (or anyone else, for that matter) was the moral authority, what kind of "morality" would we be showing in torture? What kind of "morality" would we be showing in prejudice and treating other humans as inferior? Even if we assume that all of our enemies are evil, we would be complete hypocrites (and thus, not a moral authority) to treat them as being inferior.


Secondly, you're all forgetting what breeds terrorism in the first place. Poverty and radicalism play a major role, but hatred is the largest factor in its existence. Do you think treating their people as inferior and evil is going to cure any of these factors? You don't cure hatred with more hatred. Believe it or not, "fighting fire with fire" isn't the most sound strategy (ask a local fireman).


Furthermore, torture won't even work. Even if you manage to capture a knowledgeable person alive and manage to extract them from their protectorates, and even if you, by some miracle, manage to torture anything of worth out of them, what good is this against a mobile and (largely) unorganized force? Even if they do tell the truth (and, be honest, how likely is that?), that was the truth days, weeks or months ago - and it will only apply to a very select minority of the terrorists out there. What can we even use this information for? The detractions greatly outweigh the benefits (which are unlikely to begin with).


Many people say, "Well, it's worth it because we will protect/save more lives than we destroy," but is this true? We need to protect/save these lives in the first place because we have enemies, and using these methods will only create more enemies (which, continuing this vicious circle, will mean we need to protect/save more lives). Yes, you may actually manage to save a few lives in the present, but you're dooming or endangering so many more in the future by giving them more problems and enemies.

You know what saves lives? Peace. If you really hope only to save the lives of Americans, the best policy you can support is that which boosts strong international relationships - not international prejudice, hypocrisy and a superiority complex. Disarming or disabling an enemy may inhibit their ability to harm you in the present, but removing any desire to harm you at all will inhibit their will to harm you forever.

Now, to merge the concept of safety and "moral authority". There is yet another reason not to endorse torture. You see, the whole reason torture is banned to begin with is the result of the Geneva Convention. Many things were decided during this convention, not the least of which was the international illegalization of the use of torture (enter "cruel and unsual punishment" wording). We Americans also agreed to this doctrine in its conception, so I'll take this opportunity to emphasize the "hypocrisy" factor again.

However, I bring this up for a much more important reason. You see, our friends and enemies are supposed to obey the same doctrine that we do. Now, what motivation will they have to uphold these laws if we begin torturing POWs? Not only will torturing POWs turn the entire world against us, it will open up our soldiers (whom I think many agree are heroes) and even our civilians to the possibility of being tortured. Is this really "protecting" anyone, or is it just creating more problems without even solving the intended ones?


Honestly, this shouldn't even be a debate. Logic so thoroughly leans to one side, I can't even believe that there is actually even remote acceptance otherwise. I think neocons are largely to blame for this.

And, for those who don't know who neocons are, they primarily believe in isolating ourselves from the rest of the world, distrusting most of the rest of the world, and typically tend to treat the rest of the world as being inferior.
 
lol, I'm so undecided right now.

Do you know why there are are middle eastern terrorists? because they are lied to. Its easy to decieve people when those people are poor, and uneducated.

The purpose of Al Quida is to kick out all the western powers from the middle east and make Middle East a pure Islam community, which they want power over. They basicly be want to be Puritans except Islam wise. They believe their interpetation of the Quran is the right one, which is an extreme interpetation. They don't even have their histories right.

Its no ones fault except their leader's, whom think what they know is the truth.

I suppose torturing is not right.
 
They lie no more than our own government. I assure you that poverty plays a much larger role than who lies to whom.

And if lying really does play a large role, what do you think torture will do to this? Now they'd have truth and lies on their side.
 
Do you know why there are are middle eastern terrorists? because they are lied to. Its easy to decieve people when those people are poor, and uneducated.
:P I really hope thats a joke.....

People become "terrorist" for a whole myraid of reasons. Try studying the politics within middle eastern culture.
 
I lived in the middle east, so I studied... "middle eastern terrorists" not just a terrorist. I'm talking of the poor and uneducated countries and people that are lied to by people like Usama Bin Ladin.
 

Sion

Member

You have to remember that bush might not be saying what he really thinks. He's gotta stay on the side of the people.
 

Erk

Member

Thanks, Title Loan, for saving me most of a rant I'd have to make.

Honestly... isn't the whole "yay america" argument supposed to be that America is a country of justice and freedom? If America is willing to go against its own laws and treaties and treat someone else as inhuman based on a strong suspicion that they're terrorists, what the hell are you folks fighting to uphold? Is that really any different from saying "Oh, he was a terrorist, of course we can enslave him and use him for physical labour"? I'm not making a slippery slope argument... just trying to show that it is never all right to dehumanise someone. It doesn't matter if they dehumanised you. Rather than spitting and breaking one's one rules, it would make a lot more sense to try to understand what drives people to terrorism. These people hate the United States and the entire First World so much that they will blow themselves up to try to damage us even a little. Yes, they have been lied to, and yes they are poor, but those CANnot be the only reasons they do what they do... the simple fact is that many of them actually DO have reasons to hate the "West". Some are more legitimate than others, and I don't claim to know a lot of them. As a member of the same culture, I don't get the perspective they do.

Does that mean terrorism is OK? No... but counterterrorism as it exists today is nothing but a breeding ground for more hate. The Iraq war, whether or not you view it as a success in its own terms, was a great way to create a lot more hatred for all us Western countries all around the world, and especially in the middle east. It's immensely depressing, and even more depressing to realise there are people who actually cheer at the realisation that America is willing to sacrifice its most important ideals in an attempt to fight it.
 
Mr.Mo said:
I lived in the middle east, so I studied... "middle eastern terrorists" not just a terrorist. I'm talking of the poor and uneducated countries and people that are lied to by people like Usama Bin Ladin.
Do you know how to fly a plane? "Uneducated" dont have the capacity to learn how to fly a plane and get liscenced, its not easy. That's an insult to the dead to somehow try and convince us that we were all thwarted by a bunch of retarded sandfarmers and that our soldiers are dieing right now at the hands of uneducated idiots. They know what they're doing and why they're doing it, whch is more than we can say about US soldiers at this point who dont have a goddamn clue what they're supposed to be doing anymore.
Anyhow, people who've experienced torture and understand torture proclaim it absolutely doesnt work. So really, argeument over.
 
I would be nice. John Adams worked as a defendant for british soldiers after the American Revolution; he did this to ensure a fair trial. We should take the time to, perhaps, investigate what is causing this terrorism a bit further then surgically cut out the elements threatening our nation, and then stop playing 'Founding Fathers' over in the Eastern sandbox of blood,sweat, tears, and munitions we call 'Iraq' these days. I don't see how it could hurt; we're fanning the flames of terrorism by not listening to them, by attacking and killing them, and by staunchly standing there bullying people without giving what they would need to start calming down: A reasonable excuse for invading their country and for killing fathers and mothers and their children, and then their children's kin.

In my opinion, our government needs to read up on what our founding fathers did in their lifetime if they want to know 'what america is supposed to be doing'. Our government has completely lost any sense of what America stands for and represents. America isn't the country it is currently being manipulated to be. The President shouldn't hold sole power over the rest of the country and he is highly suspicious of intermingling politics with religious zealotry; something that our FF saw the danger of far, far back in the past. With the way our country is going, I suspect our government of terrorism more than who our government calls terrorists. There's just too many inexcusable mistakes, outright lies, and vindicative outbursts by Bush and his staff for me to sit by and be trusting of their opinion without scrutinizing every little detail.

I really wish it was easier to be 'American' in such an era as this where America has lost sense of what America is; and if not her people, her leaders.
 
Sion;102414":3tiv46fu said:
You have to remember that bush might not be saying what he really thinks. He's gotta stay on the side of the people.

And by saying that, his approval ratings must have spiked so high.

Or not.

As far as torture goes, I'm against it in any context. If you honestly believe that anyone suspected of terrorism deserves to be tortured, I'd suggest you read up on things like the No-Fly list and Terrorist Assessment Index. There have been mistakes where, because people have similar initials as suspected terrorists, they are prevented from flying or questioned. Do you think it is a good idea to torture these people? If a terrorist, say, has the initials M.H., should we arrest everyone with a name like Mike Hunt or Matt Hanson and torture them? Because the government is already watching them and preventing them from getting on airplanes. "CIA prisons" probably contain more innocent people than they do honest terrorist suspects. The government is eager to sacrifice civil and political rights of the people for temporary security.

By the way, terrorism is also against international law as dictated by the Geneva Convention. So it's probably not a good idea to do it unless you want to piss of... oh... every other Western nation.

ryanwh;105625":3tiv46fu said:
Do you know how to fly a plane? "Uneducated" dont have the capacity to learn how to fly a plane and get liscenced, its not easy. That's an insult to the dead to somehow try and convince us that we were all thwarted by a bunch of retarded sandfarmers and that our soldiers are dieing right now at the hands of uneducated idiots. They know what they're doing and why they're doing it, whch is more than we can say about US soldiers at this point who dont have a goddamn clue what they're supposed to be doing anymore.
Anyhow, people who've experienced torture and understand torture proclaim it absolutely doesnt work. So really, argeument over.

Speaking as a pilot and someone who does know how to fly a plane, it isn't difficult to learn how, nor is it expensive. In fact, I think it's fairly safe to say that if any person got into a plane (excluding massive ones like Jumbojets and such) with no previous experience or training, they could easily take off and fly around. Landing is the only tough part, and most small planes even make that pretty easy.
 
Yeah... I typed the M.H. and it was the first thing that came to mind. This would be way worse if it were an oral debate rather than a written one.

Didn't think anyone would actually notice. Oh well; Mike Hunt, I'm sure, is a common name.
 

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