A Song of Ice and Fire (book 5 now out, spoilers hidden)

[Perihelion]

ASoIaF is probably my favorite epic fantasy series. There's nothing that ORIGINAL about it, but it's executed really well. It's definitely not an easy read, though; he's absolutely brutal to his characters, who don't have plot armor, and moreover it can be a pretty stressful read because the POV switches so much and five of your favorite characters may be on the brink of horrible death at any one time. Moreover, his characters are good, but GRRM doesn't consider sympathy to be a necessary quality in a POV character, and I find myself wanting to murder some of them.

Anyone else picked up A Dance with Dragons yet? It's been out for a week or so. I'm like 2/3 of the way through the book, and I think it's probably my favorite so far. Mainly because all the characters I didn't like were in AFfC instead, and this one has all the awesome people like Dany and Jon and Tyrion.

Spoiler: spoilers for halfway through ADwD

The thing that annoys me most about this book is that Dany is dicking around in Meereen instead of sailing for Westeros. I'm really hoping she leaves by the end of the book. I wanted to kick her for marrying that Meereenese guy, but maybe he'll die or betray her or something so she can hook up with someone else. I kept hoping the marriage wouldn't happen, but oh well, she can't really take him with her to Westeros, right?

So who's everyone's favorite/least favorite characters, and what speculations do you have?

Spoiler: spoilers up through the end of AFfC

One thing I did prior to reading this was pick up my copy of AFfC to finish it, which I couldn't do before because I hated Cersei that much. I'm fine with a POV character being a total bastard, but when they're delusional and completely incompetent, I can't stand them. I strongly disliked Theon for similar reasons. I was very pleased upon finishing AFfC to find Cersei locked up in a tower at the end, anyway, and I hope something really bad happens to her. I also hate Catelyn and to a lesser extent Sansa, but Sansa was tolerable by the end of AFfC. Man, I was pissed when he brought Catelyn back. I mean, of all the characters he could bring back from the dead, why did it have to be one whose death I celebrated?!

As far as favorite characters go, I gotta say Dany, Jon, and Tyrion are my favorites, followed by Jaime, Arya, and Sam. I like how the guy who pushed a little boy out of a window to hide the fact that he was fucking his sister ended up being one of the best characters. And also the guy who wants to rape and murder his sister. GRRM, I love your morally ambiguous protagonists! I think what makes Jon and Dany so fun to read is that they have this cool stuff, like Jon being the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch with an albino direwolf and a Valyrian blade and Dany being an insanely beautiful princess with the only three living dragons in the world, but they earned it through lots of mistakes and suffering. And the cool stuff ultimately complicates their problems rather than solving them, but every now and then the gutwrenching gauntlet of suck stops and something completely badass happens. Dany's dragons hatching at the end of AGoT is a great example of that. It's cool to see them struggle and grow up and become awesome.

I guess the main point of speculation is Jon's parentage. Since fucking a woman out of wedlock is so wildly out of character for Ned, I'm positive Jon isn't Ned's son. My best guess right now is that Jon is the result of Rhaegar raping Lyanna. I remember there being some textual support for this, like Ned making Lyanna a promise on her death bed or something, but it's been so long that I don't really remember. Anyone have any other theories?

(minor ADwD spoilers below, highlight to read)
There was one minor line in ADwD that showed Ned saying something like "let him be like a real brother to them, and let Catelyn forgive me," which I'm taking as confirmation that Jon is in fact not his son.

I intend this to be a general ASoIaF thread, so please use spoilers and mark them by book!

On another note, I haven't seen the HBO series, but I've heard good things. Anyone seen it?

 

[candle]

i've only just started the 3rd book (i.e. only read the first page or 2), but they are very good. my fav. characters have always been arya, tyrion, and jon snow. I watch the hbo series via series-cravings, and i must say, they were very true to the book.

 

[Perihelion]

That's cool. I'll have to check it out sometime!

In other news, I just finished ADwD, and as a fair warning, it ends with cliffhangers for at least four characters, one of which is massive. :crazy:

Spoiler: massive ADwD spoilers!

I'm pissed at Jon. Breaking his vows was incredibly retarded. Seriously, everyone in the Night's Watch already hated him for letting the wildlings through, so what does he do but do something even more egregious? Moreover, I thought breaking his vows over a freaking angsty letter was insane character derailment when you consider that he previously turned down helping his own family and getting the thing he wanted most in the world in order to not break them. Regardless, I'm now expecting the next Lord Commander to reverse all of his decisions and fuck everything up. I don't think Jon is dead, but I really hope Melisandre doesn't bring him back as a zombie or something.

I'm impatient for Dany to get back to Westeros where she belongs. I'm completely uninterested in Meereen; it's way too long for what it contributes to the conflict in Westeros (i.e. nothing). It sucks because Dany was one of my favorite characters before this book and is less so now. Not only did I not care about what she was doing, but her POV in this one was a long string of fuck-ups and inactivity. She should have been training the dragons instead of just chaining them up forever, the marriage to Loraq was still retardedly short-sighted given her eventual goal of returning to Westeros (also dumb because if he could stop the killings, he obviously knows who's doing them and is thus an enemy), she failed to poison the wells in the siege, etc. I feel like she went backwards in terms of character development. She was totally a hardass before, killing all the Astapori Wise Masters, so what was with all of this hand-wringing over executing people in Meereen? What happened to that entire character arc where she went from being a naive young girl to a hard-nosed realist?

I was also somewhat disappointed with Tyrion. I don't like the angstier, embittered turn his character took, and I kept wanting him to meet up with Dany and shake some sense into her, but GRRM kept blueballing me about it instead. I was annoyed that he was traveling towards her for the whole book but kept getting diverted.

I'm also not happy that it looks like Cersei is going to escape her fate and start scheming again, but I guess she couldn't be smashed by Dany as per the prophecy otherwise. Urgh. I was really hoping we'd be shut of her, but I guess she's climbing back into the throne after Varys killed Kevan.

Otherwise I wanna know what happened with Brienne. I will be displeased if she betrayed Jaime to Lady Stoneheart as it looks like she did, but I suspect it's more complicated than that.

Despite the above griping, I enjoyed the book, but it had some significant problems.

I have some speculations about stuff but dunno if anyone here is interested in discussing it yet.

 

[Venetia]

hi GUESS WHAT i'm reviving this


ASoIaF is pretty much exploding my pants off my body. It's been many, many years since I've been so rapt by a set of fiction books.

The HBO series got me into it in the first place, but the books are still better. The level of detail that G.R.R. Martin puts into the descriptions and lore is fantastic and engrossing.

Anyone else picked up A Dance with Dragons yet? It's been out for a week or so. I'm like 2/3 of the way through the book, and I think it's probably my favorite so far. Mainly because all the characters I didn't like were in AFfC instead, and this one has all the awesome people like Dany and Jon and Tyrion.

In AFfC, I enjoyed Brienne's and Arya's tales. The rest of them were mostly "eh". Except Cersei's chapter at the end, which caused me to roll around in blissful schadenfreude.
And Jaime's reaction. A definitive "HEH." moment if ever I saw one.

Spoiler: spoilers for halfway through ADwD

The thing that annoys me most about this book is that Dany is dicking around in Meereen instead of sailing for Westeros. I'm really hoping she leaves by the end of the book. I wanted to kick her for marrying that Meereenese guy, but maybe he'll die or betray her or something so she can hook up with someone else. I kept hoping the marriage wouldn't happen, but oh well, she can't really take him with her to Westeros, right?

Spoiler

yeah i am not thrilled with dany's recent stagnancy. so much of the series takes you all over Westeros, but I'm more interested in the region surrounding Valyria and the Nine Free Cities. The only character (pretty much, with some recent adds from Tyrion or Arya) who travels these lands is Dany. It was a poor choice on Martin's part to hole her up there for so long. I mean, they're HIS stories, he's allowed to do w/e he wants with them, but I really wish she kept marching and things kept changing.

The third book's travels and perils were so fantastic ... There are only going to be seven books (he announced), so i wonder how much army-gathering will be smooshed into the 6th book to make room for what will undoubtedly be a gigantic clusterfuck in the 7th?

Also I am so sad about Jorah Mormont ((( I really loved that guy, why'd Dany have to go and marry that gayass slaver :///
(I'm only partway through the 5th book, but I have already heard about who Dany marries so it's not a spoiler for me.)

So who's everyone's favorite/least favorite characters, and what speculations do you have?

Obviously Tyrion is the man. I don't think there's any denying that.
Dany and Arya are majorly bosses.
Curiously, even though I hated them in the 1st book, I have come to rather like Littlefinger & Sansa.
Jaime as well.
I rather liked Brienne's journeys in the 4th book. Can't blame her for wanting to make everything right and maintain justice at all costs.

Spoiler

I also was a big fan of Sandor Clegane, but ((
And still, SO SAD over poor Khal Drogo ((((((((((((
he was THE MAN

Everyone seems to really like Jon Snow, but I am always bored to tears with his parts. I don't quite know why. Same with Bran.
The stories involving people in Dorne and the Iron Islands weren't that interesting to me, either. They should, because I really dig desert cultures and vikings, but for some reason, those POV chapters fall very flat for me.

Spoiler: spoilers up through the end of AFfC

One thing I did prior to reading this was pick up my copy of AFfC to finish it, which I couldn't do before because I hated Cersei that much. I'm fine with a POV character being a total bastard, but when they're delusional and completely incompetent, I can't stand them. I strongly disliked Theon for similar reasons. I was very pleased upon finishing AFfC to find Cersei locked up in a tower at the end, anyway, and I hope something really bad happens to her. I also hate Catelyn and to a lesser extent Sansa, but Sansa was tolerable by the end of AFfC. Man, I was pissed when he brought Catelyn back. I mean, of all the characters he could bring back from the dead, why did it have to be one whose death I celebrated?!

Spoiler

I didn't celebrate Catelyn's death, though it seems to me that there were probably far better people to give the kiss of life to. Hell, Beric Dondarrion probably would have continued to be a better leader (though I guess by that point, he was pretty done with dying over and over).

I have a creeping feeling that Cersei will make it to the 7th book. She's too good to hate for her to die before it, before the agony of seeing her other children die (though I like Tommen & Myrcella, they are nice kids, especially Tommen with his little kittens and kind heart), and before realizing that all her actions only resulted in insulting and diminishing her family's greatest ally, while totally and completely ignoring the true threats to her kingdom.

Since Joffrey bit the big one, and Jaime's turned over a new leaf, and the Lord of Light and the Others are nebulous enemies/allies, ya gotta hate SOMEONE.

Spoiler

I guess the main point of speculation is Jon's parentage. Since fucking a woman out of wedlock is so wildly out of character for Ned, I'm positive Jon isn't Ned's son. My best guess right now is that Jon is the result of Rhaegar raping Lyanna. I remember there being some textual support for this, like Ned making Lyanna a promise on her death bed or something, but it's been so long that I don't really remember. Anyone have any other theories?

Spoiler

I've been suspecting this all along. And if it's not Ned, it'd HAVE to be Lyanna, since it's been mentioned multiple times that Jon looks a lot like Ned.
And it's been mentioned that Arya is the spitting image of Lyanna, while also looking very much like Ned's daughter, while also looking the most like Jon of her siblings.
Jon was born either 1 year before Lyanna's death, or during the same year (not sure), so the timeframe is right.
And Lyanna was too important of a character in the history of the world's lore to not have a hand in these books' events more directly.
Plus, the whole, "Promise me, Ned" thing? No brainer.

also, my own input:

i've heard much of the Jaqen H'gar/Pate == Syrio Forel debate. I'm still on the fence about it, leaning more toward =/=.

otherwise, i had really really hoped after the 2nd book that Gendry and Arya would team up somehow. I accepted his leaving in the 3rd book begrudgingly, but there HAS to be more to Gendry than just being a happy helper of Dondarrion's cause. He's the oldest of Robert's bastards.
Though, I suppose, if something WERE to happen where Gendry chances to regain the throne, it would only end badly when Dany rolls in.
I have a nasty suspicion that he'll end up being another sacrifice for the Lord of Light and uhqefqjfekfqef GAY.

A small part of me still hopes that Arya will be pals with him when she eventually comes back to Westeros and it'll be another buddy flick like with Tyrion and Bronn.
"YEAH! A king's bastard and a girl assassin, savin' the day, kickin' some ass" (tm)

On another note, I haven't seen the HBO series, but I've heard good things. Anyone seen it?

The HBO series is gorgeous, well-acted, well-cast, and amazing.
Sometimes I get angry about some parts that are changed slightly or removed, but I can accept them as necessary adaptations, since books never translate into movies perfectly.
Also sometimes I get fatigued with how much nudity/sex they toss into it. The books had sex in them, but it feels like HBO just added a whole lot more of it because, well, they're HBO.
Otherwise, it is more than worth a watch. Beats the shit and piss out of The Lord of the Rings movies, IMO!
#2 on my favorite TV shows list, after Breaking Bad.

 

[StrawberrySmiles]

I wanted to randomly poke my head into this dead thread to say the following:

I borrowed A Game of Thrones from the library, using a list of books that were recommended to me. ONLY AGoT was there - a sign?

Anyway, I began reading and found it out it was one of the most engaging, gripping fantasy novels I've ever read. I've been having so much trouble reading a good book, that I go through them slowly, but with this one... I couldn't stop. I finished yesterday and now I'm eagerly waiting to get the second one.

I went to the library today and they didn't have it! It's in a totally different library. What the fudge?

Not only that, but reading this book has inspired me so much that it's helping me write like I've always wanted too (which is good because of NaNoWriMo).

Just wanted to say I like this series so far. XD

 

[Daxis]

GRRM is actually just a really, really good author. I've read his Tuf Voyaging book, and beyond the bits of pretentiousness, I actually feel like I enjoy that book better.

I read his entire series on some school break, so sadly my memories of it are fairly lacking. I'm less for detailed writing and more for general synopsis, and I just rather read in POVs that entertain me - Jaime and Arya POVs are the funnest, particularly in the latter books.